House Standing Committee on Public Safety

Good morning. Convening our Committee on Public Safety. Today is Tuesday, 10/20/2026, 9am. We are in Conference Room 411. This is an informational briefing, seeking a report on the breaking cycles study, that was presented earlier this year to the committee, by the University of Hawaii's Community Design Center.

We have people participating, members who can participate via Zoom, as well as people here in the room. And I take the time to have my colleagues introduce them, themselves from my right first.

Okay. Hi. Good morning. I'm Kim Coco Iwamoto, a Representative for the 25th District, and that's Ala Moana, Kakaako in Downtown Honolulu. I'm happy to be Vice Chair.

Thank you. And as is the practice of the committee, these informational briefings are open to all members of our State House. And so to my left, Anna, if you can introduce yourself.

Sure. Amy Perusso representing House District 46.

So we have seen the transition from the Department of Public Safety to the Department of Corrections and Rehabilitations over the last couple of years. The breaking cycles report is part of this transition, as we move towards more rehabilitated models within our corrections department. So what we'd like to do today, and the agenda is in listed in the notice. We wanna get an overview of the report. What are the status of the recommendations that have been adopted and implemented?

What are. A report on the recommendations that were not adopted and the reasons for those decisions and then any implementation needs as we move into the 2027 legislative session, which is only a few months away. So we're gonna start off, and our presenters are from the Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation.

Today, we have with us Director Tommy Johnson and the oversight Commission Coordinator, Kristen Johnson. So I'll give you the floor first, Director.

I'll make you stand up. See if

That's okay. You can just.

Okay. So I'm Tommy Johnson, the Director of Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation. So when we started the project, it started before I became the Director. We hired UHCDC to do the most far outreach as possible to reach into all corners of society and our community to try to find out to get input from not just the community leaders, from legislators, from businesses, from people incarcerated, formerly incarcerated folks, uniform staff, non uniform staff, and a host of others.

In doing so, they held two forums, a 120 something talk story sessions you guys read this last year. As a result of that, they provided us a comprehensive report about the criminal justice system as a whole, not just DCR.

So I wanna make it clear that the recommendation report have to deal with from initial police contact all the way through the court system through prison and reentry, reunification. We adopted. As you know, we provided two pages of recommendations we adopted from the breaking cycles report.

We provided that in our testimony on SCR 60, last year. We've adopted those recommendations also for the rebuild. Proposed rebuild of the Laumaka Work Furlough Facility, which we intend to rename the Laumaka Work. To rename Laumaka Reentry and Reintegration Center. We also provided the two pages to the planners and designers at DAGS and our consultants.

We did the same thing for our proposed rebuild on movement of the Kalani. Excuse me, Kauai Community Correctional Center. So those two pages of recommendations we felt were the most salient and the most appropriate for our correctional facilities. Some of the other recommendations in there are really for other jurisdictions for the courts, police, prosecutors because it's the whole system as a whole.

If you remember, the project started out at 13,000 bed facility, new OCCC, 300 bed community transition center.

Based on the feedback from the neighborhood board, from the Halawa Neighborhood Board and I am neighborhood board, I believe, we decided to not build the CTC there because it really didn't make sense. It was in the, It would have, the problem would have been trying to get those being going out to work to the nearest bus depot when they didn't want them.

So it made more sense to raise and rebuild the Laumaka Work Furlough Center and rename it and increase the bed space capacity based on the results we're gonna get from Doctor Janet Davidson's classification study, which we should have by December.

So the plan is and it's supported by the neighborhood board there. The plan is to raise and rebuild the Laumaka work for most, we name it, Increase the bed space capacity from 120 to 240 to consolidate intake service center operations at the same location for efficiency. That way, we can do community supervision work out of one site.

In addition to that, we have the plan as we working the bed space capacity for the facility from a 1,000 to 800, and we are in the negotiating with the FTC and the Bureau of Prisons to increase our presence there to raise amount of bed space that we can lease from 100 to 300. Right now, OCCC has slightly over 900 folks in custody here.

So, this year in a budget for fiscal year 2028, we're asking for 130,000,000 for the rebuild of the Laumaka Referral Center. And in fiscal year '29, the 287,500,000 for the initial funding for the OCCC. Because OCCC project, building it relies on the status of AQF, the Arnold Quarantine Facility, some decisions have to be made by the administration and DAGs, regarding that facility before we can start construction on a new OCCC.

Right now, if we stay on the current schedule we're looking at late 2031 to 2032 when the facility would be finished. And, now our consultant to DAGS are working up information to provide to the Director of Budget and Finance and to the Governor's Office regarding funding options method of paying for the facility.

That's where we stand. So, subject to your questions. That's all I have.

Let's have, Miss Johnson come up and then we can open the floor to questions, and maybe dig more deeply into some of the bullet points.

Good morning, everyone. I'm Kristen Johnson. I'm the Oversight Coordinator of the Hawaii Correctional System Oversight Commission. As you're all aware, the Oversight Commission is really an oversight entity that does not impact operations as much. Like, we don't navigate operations of the department.

And so when it comes to jail planning, we're actually not a part of that system unless we're directly invited to be. And so I don't have too much to update as far as the jail planning, but I did wanna give a brief update of our work on the SCR 89 Advisory Committee. This is an Advisory Committee that was actually created in tandem with this SCR 60.

And what it is meant to do is bring together a group of different stakeholders, whether it be correction staff, people who are formerly incarcerated, cultural practitioners, and kind of sit down together, look at all of the recommendations that came from the breaking cycles report and, you know, try to help the department implement them.

It's an interesting group because a lot of people have some really fantastic ideas, but as the Director has made it very clear to us, what we put forward are recommendations only. And so we are a little bit nervous about that. We don't want the work to go to waste. But there's a couple of things that this group really wants to focus on. One, the dynamic security portion.

Breaking cycles really covers the importance of dynamic security because dynamic security is having the correction staff directly in with the offender population, really working with them, having meals with them, like, really transitioning to that therapeutic system. We are a little bit concerned with the department's plan to not need as many correctional staff in the new facility because that means that they wouldn't be able to have dynamic security.

They would have more of a security system like Halawa where you have one person in a bubble kind of overlooking many individuals. And we just know that that one on one opportunity, especially with the jail population, is extremely important. The jail population is more at risk of suicide.

The jail population is more at risk of very serious mental health issues in general, and so having staff who are there to recognize, you know, Hey. You haven't eaten today. Hey. You seem off today. Whatever that situation may be is really important to have that dynamic security. We're also really focusing on the largest part of the report which is embedding cultural programming within the correctional system.

This is something that the commission definitely feels could be started now. The department has been making some really fantastic strides with highlighting the importance of cultural programming and especially in elevating Makahiki. And so we're really excited to see Makahiki in all the prisons this year. You know that was a huge lift for the department so we're excited to see it.

But what this Advisory Committee really wants to see is more of a department wide framework and so instead of cultural programs here or there whether it be Makahiki or Hula things of that nature we really want to see a framework that focuses on the reminiscent of Hawaii's unique context and honor the qualities and values of the indigenous language and culture of Hawaii.

And so transparently, we've only met once so far, and so there's a lot of work to be done. But we have our next two meetings scheduled. But I think that's gonna be the big focus area of the next meetings is how can we work with the department to help them create an entire framework versus, you know, picking a few recommendations here or there.

The department did give us a list of recommendations that they are pulling from the breaking cycles report. It was. It's not very specific as we've talked about. And so one thing that the Advisory Committee has talked about is maybe taking the two pages of the recommendations that the department is pulling and trying to work with the department to really see it all through.

And so if the department says, okay, we're gonna embed cultural programming, like, what does that look like? Who's gonna run it? How often? Who needs to approve it? You know all those different nitty gritty pieces that need to be incorporated.

And so again not getting into the operations of, you know, telling them, you know, you have to do this, but more giving them a framework and saying, hey like maybe this is an easier way to go about it, and we've already found the different stakeholders who are willing to work with you to implement it. And so that's kind of what the commission has been up to lately, but of course, I'm open for any questions.

Oh, and I did wanna mention, so that department wide framework, one last point, is that, that's actually not new for departments here. And so the DOE, what we've been looking at, and please forgive how I pronounce this, Nā Hopena Aʻo program, that is a framework that we're looking at because they have implemented it throughout DOE and we've been really impressed with what we're seeing kind of embedded through it.

And so I just wanna mention that that I'm available for any questions. Thank you.

Okay. Members. So I wanna open it up to questions, but perhaps if maybe I can. I'll start off with some questions for Mister Johnson, Director. So I'm looking at the breaking cycles report, and one of the initial kind of sets of.

Says design principles, considerations, and elements was to start with the systems reform. And you talked about how this is part of a systems approach. Can you comment on what's happening at the Governor's level with DCR, DOH, Judiciary, around some of these recommendations?

Well, we're working with the Judiciary on Diversion Program for Oahu and I believe was a big island. The big island. And I believe Doctor champion out of the Governor's Office is working on a deflection model. And the deflection model would be that initial first contact with the police department and the person who's clearly maybe having some kind of psychotic break or some mental health issues would be diverted from arrest to some type of facility where they could be evaluated and receive some kind of services.

We would come in at 2 through 5 where they come to our custody and once they're in our custody, then we would work to try to one, get them released on supervision as quickly as possible with the courts providing otherwise qualified, but then those that are with us for any length of time when we try to do programming.

So, our programming is focused on the sentence felon population because the rest are longest, they're the most stable. Next is the sentence misdemeanor population that are with us for up to a year. Than the pre trial population is much tougher because they could be with us for three days or three months or two weeks. We don't know because they could be a lot of be released on supervision.

So, we're trying to, one, develop the holistic programs, evidence based programs not develop a whole what we have for the sentence felon population and the misdemeanor population.

And now we then we will concentrate on the jail population. What can we do for that? Because we do have a lot of folks who we call frequent flyers. They may come into our custody three, four times a year, sometimes more. Most of the time they have mental health issues and they're off their medication.

And so I believe the State as part of this effort, the diversion effort needs to have some place where we can place these folks who clearly have mental health issues, who shouldn't belong in jail or prison in community settings. That's where the entire state needs to come together and work on that because if we're able to do that, we can decrease the number of court hours, number of emergency room business, the number of of supervision because they're getting services in the community.

And I've said this time and time again, someone with mental health illness, the jail is the least effective place for them. So it's not holistic. It's predatory, predatory.

So for our part, we're doing what we can so far. As as Miss Johnson said, we're bringing the Makahiki to all of the prison facilities. We still have a long way to go. We're willing to work with the oversight commission to flush out the two pages of recommendations because it's not just two pages. It is very extensive when you read the two pages of what we took from the report.

But I agree that we need to work with them to flush it out. But I also wanna make it clear that some of those recommendations will require legislative appropriations in order to implement and maintain down the line.

Okay. Can you be more specific about what's happening? You mentioned that you guys are doing some work on Big Island on Oahu with Judiciary. Can you be more specific? Also, I know that there has been diversion efforts on Maui.

Have you been part of those discussions with Prosecutor Andrew Martin?

No. I have not. I have been involved here with, and my staff have been involved here on the Big Island. So, I can talk to those two. Speak to those two efforts. Part of the problem here on Oahu is the Prosecutor's Office made the criteria so stringent for acceptance and they have the overall veto to say whether they'll allow the offender into the diversion program or not.

That even though we have this huge heavy lifting and we have this effort underway with the Prosecutor's Office, Public Defender's Office, Police, HPA, Paroling Authority, acceptance of the program is very small.

So, I think what the Prosecutors Office may wanna do is reconsider their position and allow for a broader spectrum of offenders to go into this diversion system. So it's kind of frustrating for us, but I see the prosecutor's point is to keep dangerous people off the street.

But to some degree, some of these folks, if it wasn't for mental health illness or wasn't for. Because they don't have case management services, they wouldn't be committing some of the little. What I call nuisance crimes that they're committing. Right? With respect to the Big Island, we're a little bit further along, with the process.

We had worked with, Judge Kim before he retired, Judge Robert Kim, and work with the Police Department and the Prosecutor's Office there to do some, diversion efforts. Deflection has to be done before they come to us. So I'm not, I can't speak to what those deflection efforts are or they're successful or not. But I can tell you this, any type of deflection or diversion has to be with available resources. It has to be with case management services.

It has to be plugging the folks into benefits, getting them housing, getting them stable on medication, getting them navigators to work, to work with them through the system and through the agencies they need to make contact with, to get the benefits and get the help that they need. And I think, as a state as a whole, we don't have that. We don't have the Dade model, the Florida Dade County model.

Okay. I beg to differ on that. Can you comment on the progress being made on the section 1115 waiver? Because when you speak about case management being needed, we've been speaking about case management for a long, long time, and that's part of the therapeutic setting.

So now if we shift from just diversion and deflection to when they're leaving your custody, what is the process that you folks are in to implement the section 1115 waiver so that we have that warm handoff?

So to be clear, it would be DHS the Institute's 1115. So we're working with DHS now. We have been working with them for over a year on different efforts. The first effort was to get them plugged in to MedQuest and MedicAid. So when they walk out the door, they have those. They are already signed up. We work with our

Where is that?

I'm sorry?

Where is that right now? Because I believe didn't DHS do a presentation of some sort on their implementation? Where is that right now? Because we've been talking about it for about a year.

We have, we have a pilot program going now. Where we have people signed up for SNAP benefits. Correct? You wanna speak to it, you can?

Yeah. Please. Please introduce and then can you tell us where it is and what stage the pilot is in?

Sara Munoz. I'm the Deputy Director for Rehabilitation Services and Programs with the Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation. So just wanna go back a little bit. We are currently working and I apologize, I did not give Director the update.

I just had my staff meeting. So we did. We are working with the Maui Nui reentry with, Prosecutor Martin, my Intake Service Centers Division, as well as my Mental Health and Justice Systems. Project is working closely with them, and I think they do monthly meetings.

I don't know exactly where they're at in terms of, you know, developing plans and I think the last time I got the update, they were looking at the resources available in that community.

They are also working with, Hawaii Health and Harm Reduction, Heather Luster on the reentry simulation. So at different, you know, intercepts of the system. So my team is working with them also. So they just did the reentry simulation, I believe, on Maui and as well as on Kauai. And our DCR team last year did a reentry, they did in SIM mapping with Hawaii Island.

So those efforts are underway specific to the DHS 1115 waiver. We are working currently with them and trying to develop plans that go around, while they try to implement the 1115 waiver. It's been more difficult than I think anybody anticipated. The biggest issue we're facing right now is the exchange of data. So we are working and Romy's on that, team that's working with them.

So she might have a more developed response to this. But I do know that we are working with DHS is working with the enterprise technology services for the state on how we can, work on exchanging data. In the meantime, as Director indicated, Women's and Waihava, we have a pilot with my reentry and the SNAP benefits. So they sign up for them like ten days prior to release and that's going on.

On Hawaii Island, my Intake Service Center is working with the County Prosecuting Attorney's Office at the pretrial stage for them to have, Kumukahi Health and Wellness. They're working with them also, to do reentry planning from the pretrial stage. Sign them up for benefits, look at getting them IDs and things like that.

And from a pretrial diversion effort, my Intake Service Centers is also partnering with my Reentry Coordination Office and they're applying inmates, sorry, defendants who are in the pretrial. Supervision stage, they're applying, they're getting them applied for birth certificates if they don't currently have them.

That's being paid for by our department to increase those efforts. So that's some of the things that we're doing. I'm sorry if I lost track of where the question was going. So.

No. This is great because I think this is where we need to hear where the progress is. So I'm hearing a lot of of connecting with services with benefits like SNAP food, Earth certificates, Medicaid. What about the connection to mental health services and that portion of the therapeutic piece of reentry.

Anyone can speak to that.

My Health Care Division Administrator here, is here, so I prefer to let the experts speak on it, but I can tell you that, that area of operations does do discharge planning with our mental health population as they're exiting out.

Okay. Can we have an update on that? Because, again, I think this is the piece. Right? We talk a lot about kind of these larger recommendations, but we don't get into the nitty gritty and not understand if it's actually happening and where we can actually for future lawmakers or you know, ongoing lawmakers where they have to dig into and ask the questions.

Yeah. Absolutely. So my name is Romey Glidewell. I'm the Health Care Division Administrator for the Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation. And just to give you a little bit of perspective on 1115, I did just come back from the Coalition of Correctional Health Care Authorities for the American Correctional Association.

So go ahead.

1115 is a national movement, and I do wanna say that the program that we're developing is one of the largest that I've heard out there from my peers. Most of them take two to three years to get off the ground. We were one of the second waves to get approved. So the ones that were approved prior to us, California, Washington, Connecticut, a few other states, they're just getting going.

So timeline wise, we are within the realm of how long this is taking for other states to get them off the ground.

The fact that DHS has approved one of the largest umbrellas, which means that they're including the most amount of services, and they are creating the broadest window of eligibility that any of the other states are seeing. I was very proud to be enviable from my other states who said that they wish they had such a generous DHS program. We are the furthest along we've ever been. So we are two and a half years of negotiations. We are seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.

We have nailed down the fee for service costs. We have nailed down the carriers. We are working on our side. I'll say on the, DCR side, we are working on workflow implementation and viability. So we're looking at. There's about a million steps including identifying who will do enrollment, what kind of services will be provided pre release. So it is a pre release program.

Once they're released, they actually switch over to regular Medicaid services. So it really is identifying the 90 days pre release and also doing our best to identify how we're going to do warm handoffs. One of the challenges we have here in Hawaii, which you guys are all familiar with, is every single facility, every island is gonna have a different workflow. We don't have the same community centers on Maui that we have on Oahu.

So we're actually develop totally different reentry plans for every one of our facilities. Also being unified, very few of the jail, DOCs nationally are engaging in 1115 because of you need a hard release date to enter into the MedQuest system. You don't get hard release dates unless you have a sentence. So again, we're working on this kind of like, gray area.

Again, DHS has been generous and they've been allowing us to sort of like, identify, estimated release dates so that we can at least start services so that we can at least plan those reentry pieces.

As far as the actual transition of care, we are suffering from the same challenges that everyone in community is, that the wait to see a provider on the outside is three to six months. We don't exactly know how to solve that problem as DCR because it really is more of a state based problem. We are looking into. So let's say I do find an outside provider and they only see patients via Telehealth. That means my inmate has to have a smartphone.

And that is the way that mental health is moving. So if I find somebody who doesn't have a brick and mortar, who doesn't take patients physically, and I don't, I have an inmate being released and they don't have a smartphone. We have headphone services, but they're typically like burner type phones. They aren't that high-tech.

I can't necessarily transition them to somebody who doesn't have an actual office and fewer and fewer mental health providers are opening up physical spaces to see patients. So I don't have an answer to that, but we are identifying that this is a larger challenge and it's gonna, like, require more creative solutions as far as that transition of care.

I did implement this month a Mental Health Committee within my department to include the Mental health programs officer coming back from ACA. We are anticipating that our population of geriatric patients, which includes dementia and neurocognitive decline and mental health disorders is going to essentially be like 50 percent of our population by 2030 in the corrections department.

So, our goal in the Health Care and the Programs Division is to anticipate these next five years and how we're going to kind of like better care, including reentry transition and build outs in general for this population.

So it is on our list of things, to high prioritize. One of the things, and again, this is early days and we have to kinda look into this, is we've typically released inmates with 30 days of medication, like actually in their hand. But we're also looking into whether or not there is any reason why we can't call in a prescription that they could pick up because we are seeing 30 to 60. I'm sorry, 3 months to 6 month waits to see a prescriber.

If I can call in. I'm a, I'm a provider prescriber in the community prior to taking this job. I can call in a 6 month prescription. 180 days is not unreasonable. So we're gonna talk to the Attorney General's Office. We're gonna talk to a few people.

But is there any reason why our in house providers aren't calling in prescription? We can't hand them to them, but they can go pick them up which longs do you want, which Walgreens do you want, where are you going to be landing? What side of the island? What island?

And if I can at least get a prescription called in and MedQuest covers them, even if they can't see a provider, but those are their stable meds, maybe they can continue their prescription as the very minimum thing that we can do while we try to like, actually identify people to take over their care.

I know the FQHSs and community partners in general are trying to gear up, but it's not just a matter of the FQHS is gearing up. They actually need to find providers, and there's just a shortage across the board, unfortunately, both for psychology and psychiatry. And so we individually, as DCR, don't have a solution to that, but we are trying to be very creative in the way that we support our community in that transition.

Okay. I, So I'm hearing the challenges with the community services. Can you speak more specifically to concrete progress or any progress of increasing in facility services?

And what are the steps that you folks are taking? You know, we heard, Miss Johnson talk about how you wanna, how there's a vision to have staffing be more integrated into the therapeutic treatment. That takes training. So I'm sure that that's not gonna be happening very quickly. But what are the specific steps you're doing to increase services in facility?

So the first thing that I would speak to is that we have engaged in vetting several different training programs that are Correctional Behavioral Health Certification Programs that are for security staff as well as Medical Health Care Nursing Staff. We are in the last phases of getting the, a vendor that we've identified as having a sustainable program.

One of my initiatives for myself personally when becoming an administrator was we've had several. We have events, and then the administration will try to correct it. But often, it's based on funding. And then when the funding goes away, whatever training it was, we'll get a group of people trained, and then the funding goes away. And then those people leave the department, and now we don't have anybody trained.

So I was really determined to find a train the trainer program so we build in the sustainability. So we're gonna be partnering with our Cadet Training Program, training 35 trainers in this very specific type of Mental Health Certification Program, which includes de escalation.

It includes identifying people who are at risk for suicidality. It includes, the things that Kristen mentioned as far as, like the behaviors that are associated with these things, not coming out of cell, not coming, not taking the regular phone call that they normally take every afternoon, not getting up for meals, not engaging normally that security would actually be trained on. Right now, the vendor has one more clearance to do with Hawaii compliance. I forgot what it's called.

HCE, the Hawaii's, yeah. For them to be able to, for us to be able to engage in a procurement contract, they just have one more thing to get cleared, and then we can procure them and set up that training to get our trainers trained. Once we have the 35 trainers trained, then we would start.

Every two years, everybody in the department is required to get recertified. So we would. That would just be their next training. As they as they come up, we would recertify them, as well as all the cadets would be initiated with this new certification program. So in theory, fingers crossed, I would like to say between two and three years, everybody who has direct inmate contact would be certified in this vendor's very broadly acknowledged, nationally accredited Behavioral Health Certification Program.

So that's one thing that we're working on and we're getting closer to closing out. We have the funding, everything is in place, we're just waiting on the vendor.

The second thing would be that, I would say this has been a significant improvement for us is that our new hire, our new Chief Nursing Officer is actually a PMHMP, which is a Psychiatric Mental Health Nurse Practitioner, instead of a Family Practice Nurse Practitioner, which was an intentional decision that we made, because we were trying to de silo mental health. Historically, in healthcare, in general, people have gotten very fixated on specializing.

And so they'll say, Oh, that's a mental health issue that needs to be addressed by them. And we're trying to reduce that by saying, like, every issue is everybody's issue. Right? It's security. It's nursing. It's medicals.

If we see somebody who's deescalating or who's, like, becoming psychotic or having a behavioral issue, you're the first responder. It doesn't matter what your what your professional role is and getting them prepared. Having our Chief Nursing Officer who, in our organizational chart, she oversees all of the nursing branch, she's helped to retrain her nurses as being first responders and not say don't defer this care. She's also now our acute crisis. Part of her position description is that she does 30% of her time is in clinical.

She came from the Mental Health Crisis Center over by, I forget what it's called, but that's where she came from is the Mental Health Crisis Center. So she's trained and adept at those, like, quick responses. This is what this person needs. Let's get them safe, and let's transition their care after they're stabled to a more chronic managed state.

We've already seen a reduction in our the amount of days that people are on suicide and safety watch having her on board. And we're seeing the engagement with staff different as she's sort of, like, breaking down those silos. And honestly, it's no criticism to anybody. It's uncomfortable. Psychotic breaks are challenging. People are hurting themselves physically.

You can't identify what their need is. You literally can't identify what they need to be safe. And it overwhelms staff. And everybody kind of handles that differently. Watching their boss boots on the ground engaging really directly has actually like, kind of calmed everybody down and allowed them to approach this type of healthcare and this type of patient very differently.

So, she is part. Gonna be part of our Mental Health Committee and we're gonna start breaking down those silos so that it isn't so. I mean, the truth is what everybody needs is to be seen and heard. Like, it doesn't take five minutes for me to just sit there with you sometimes, no matter how upset you are. Me deferring your care to somebody else is sometimes not the ideal thing.

But that means that we have to empower our staff to feel like they have the capacity to do that. That being said, as a PMHMP, she's opening the door for us to be able train and assimilate PMHMPs. Historically, the department has only ever had psychiatrists, those are medical doctors who do residency in psychiatric care. Those mid level providers are easier to hire. So it's always been challenging for us to get psychiatrists.

We don't have a problem getting agency psychiatrists, but getting state hired psychiatrists have been challenging. We were awarded 10 APRN positions from the last ledge session. Five of those positions will be dedicated psychiatric mental health nurse practitioner positions, and only four will be for specifically medical nurse practitioners and one high utilization management position who will assist us in, like our releases and our transfers to the state hospital and things like that.

So we're trying to pull in a higher level of care so we aren't waiting to schedule, waiting to have them see somebody else. I mean, one of the first things that my CNO said to me, she's like, if they need a manage, A med management, can I do that right then? And I'm like, absolutely. If there's a patient in front of you that needs care, you care for them. No more deferral. No more waiting to be seen.

No more transition of care. It's like, just take care of what's happening right in front of you. So that's one of the the changes that we're doing frontline. We're a small DOC. I mean, in community, a provider has a patient panel of 5,000.

We have 4,000 inmates. We should be able to manage if we're allowed to manage what's in front of us immediately. So we're just sort of, like, transitioning that concept a little bit, which historically wasn't in place. It was put them on the list. They'll be seen in a week or two.

Doesn't really work for acute crisis. So that's one of the the big changes we're doing internally.

Okay. Can I? Can you pause? I wanna make sure that my colleagues have an opportunity to ask questions. But before I open it, I just wanna follow-up on one thing that you said, and then please ask questions.

This is for your solutions. Okay. So before I let go of this, so on the staffing I think it's really good to hear that you folks are now doing the train the trainer. And so we should be able to go back to UPW then and ask and see, you know, is this being implemented? And I think, you know, my hope is that they are being consulted, that they are are part of this process, and that they're on board with this kind of certification happening.

A future committee can follow-up on that to make sure, you know, that's happening. On the issue of the 10 additional mental health positions, so you have a Central Chief Nursing Officer, and I'm glad that you guys are looking at, you know, different certifications in this. You spoke so fast. PMHNP.

PMHNP. Yeah.

PMHNP.

Psychiatric Mental Health Nurse Practitioner. Yep.

So she, I'm assuming, is one person overseeing the whole system. Is the concept that you're you're gonna have PMHNPs on the different islands potentially as part of this this 10 staffing mix that we have?

Yes and no. So the way that we've mapped it out is. So one of the challenges that we have is that a full time position isn't warranted by Census and all the islands. So what we're gonna do is we're going to have the majority of them here, and we're gonna have one that covers Big Island and Maui. Sorry.

I'm trying to see my whiteboard in front of me. One that covers Big Island and Maui, and the one that goes to Kauai once a week, and then the rest of them here because four of our facility. Our largest facilities are here.

But we do plan. I think. I wanna say that, one of the positions will be in Maui and fly to Big Island, something like that. We do have one position located on a neighbor island who will then cover two of the islands. But the census only being like, a 150, 200, that's not five days worth of work Unfortunately. So that's sort of one of the balances that we have to weigh.

Right. I think it's important as this rolls out. Are all of the DHRD position descriptions lined up and matching for us? Because I remember that's part of the challenge sometimes of the staff.

Yep. We've worked really hard to do that. Yeah. And so. And we feel really good about. And we looked at all of our censuses, and we've looked at utilization, and we feel pretty good about, the way that this is gonna roll out.

And then just for future funding purposes, are these positions fully funded in the base budget? And if you could speak to that and that's gonna be what we need to follow-up on or the future legislators are gonna have to follow-up.

No. But in our request that she. The legislature gave us $2,600,000 last year for the positions. And the total position count for our healthcare was 35. This year, we're requesting funding for 50% of the positions because we still have to recruit to fill the positions, which will take some time, you know.

And so that's why we're not asking for the full amount. In the next by. In the next fiscal year, probably fiscal year '29, we'll see where we are in filling the positions and at that point we'll be asked for the full funding for the positions. So, we wanna ask.

Can I ask by not asking for the full funding? Is that then presenting a problem for recruitment purposes because you can't say that you have the full funding available?

No. Because we have vacancies and other areas that we can cover if we have to, but some of the. As as Romey indicated, like five of the positions of psychiatrists. Right?

Five. There's not five psychiatrists available on the West Coast. So, we would end up contracting those positions out, but unfortunately, it'll probably cost more to do that because psychiatrists make anywhere between 340 and 380.

So... Well, I think... Again, I understand why the departments do this dance, but I think it's really important to communicate what the needs are and so that you can fill the positions and then keep the committees apprised of how you are filling those positions. And then, again, my question as to how you're making sure that coverage is across the state. It's it's really important to also communicate that because of the concerns on Maui and Big Island and all the other, facilities.

If I could go back to one issue, Romy mentioned about working on the... With DHS on eleven fifteen waivers. So one of the things we did for the convicted felon population, the prison population, which works with the HPH Chair, Gene Demello. And what happened, only they had Chair to set clarification of so and so, but DHS needed to speak date of one hundred and twenty days or less.

So, we got the parole board to agree to change the Chair to set to say that inmate Smith, is tentative granted parole with early state of one hundred and twenty days out at...

Or earlier if these things are done with verification of residents, employment, what have you. That way, they're able to... We're able to try to get them signed up for eleven fifteen waiver. So that I wanted to clarify that because we are working on the... We did get that for HPA for the convicted felon population and then let me explain pretty well where we are in the other areas.

When did that policy change for HP?

That was, like four or five months ago we met with HPA with Jean Dimelo and Corey Reinke. He is the administrator and then they agreed to do that for the Chair to set cases. Because normally the Chair to set cases in the order, you know, signed by the Chair doesn't have a date. It just says upon verification of residence or acceptance by a program because they get...

If they're not released in a hundred twenty days, they can always go back and defer to release to continue whatever process it is to get done.

Most likely is exceptions to a program or residence. Those are the two main things.

Okay. So, by January of this year, you guys will have at least six months of that policy in place. And I think that's something that Yep. That's something that this committee can follow-up on and see if you guys are landing on a more kind of concrete workflow with DHS since now you have a more stable estimated release date.

Yeah. One of the things with DHS, they they have a pretty effective consultant and my staff can speak to that. But that contract is, I think, expiring. So I intend to write a letter to the director of DHS and ask him to consider, renewing that contract or extending that contract, that consultant because that consultant has been able to work with us, with DHS and the other stakeholders and get some of the progress that Romy mentioned. We wouldn't be here without that consultant.

Well, maybe that's something that, doctor Champion can weigh in because all of this, right, should be at the level of the administration to be focusing on. I mean, it shouldn't be you just director having to ask department of human services. This should be something that the governor is actively coordinating, especially if at some point Kahale are part of the community integration services. And we know that there's problems with Kahale. So please...

And I hope miss, Doctor. Champion is watching this. I think all of you need to be hands on deck to make sure that the coordination is happening and the funding sources aren't being, provided to the consultants who are actually helping you guys make progress. Disagree. I'm gonna open it up to questions since I've been hogging the time.

Go ahead, vice Chair.

Thank you so much. And I just wanna point out that I think at an earlier informational briefing, I did request that doctor Champion give us some kind of presentation about how he's connecting everything, but that's a side point. My question actually, can I start with administrator Romy? You mentioned... I think I heard you say that fifty percent of the individuals that you're responsible for mental health requirements or or service requirements.

But I think in the report that is the nexus of this meeting is it mentioned, like, seventy five to seventy eight percent.

So that's a definitions game. And when we talk about data and research, it's really challenging. Even when we get queries as health care providers, so you can have a situational depression because you're incarcerated. That requires services. That may require meds.

It may require counseling. That technically counts as services from us. What people are typically querying us about are severe mental illness. People who will not recover, will not rehabilitate, who have a chronic and degenerative mental illness.

And that's fifty percent?

So so that they anticipate to... It's closer... It's close to forty percent currently.

Got it.

But the anticipation in 2030 is that it will increase to fifty percent. But we're including in that number is cognitive decline with age. Because dementia and neurocognitive changes and and especially we're talking about populations who have not had great health care, who maybe have alcohol or substance use disorder, that increases the rate of neurocognitive decline. We're including that geriatric population because it is technically considered a mental health severe, persistent mental illness and does have meds. Yeah.

So that's the number.

Verifying that. You also mentioned about giving people a thirty days supply of whatever medication prescription drugs they needed. What about, so when I did a site visit, I saw many individuals who are being kept on prescription. They substituted crystal meth for prescription medicine, I guess. They were getting a prescription medicine instead of crystal meth that then they would need to...

So it doesn't look like the addiction was addressed. It was substituted with a legal prescription drug. Is that...

So I believe you're talking about Suboxone, which is for fentanyl use. Yeah, there's no treatment for amphetamines currently. Oh. Other than it takes about two years of intensive therapy and sobriety to even, like, remotely recover from amphetamine use, unfortunately, because of the dopamine withdrawal that it causes. But there is a prescription for opioid use disorder.

Currently, and I say this confidently because I was part of the program and was seeing patients up until just a little while ago, is that the trend in community is a gram of meth and a gram of fentanyl a day. That is what the majority of our inmates are coming in on. I do not have anything to treat the amphetamine addiction with. It's usually the amphetamine addiction that leads to the fentanyl use.

The way that fentanyl changes your, the neuropaths in your brain, it is sort of like taking over.

But because the withdrawal, the physical withdrawal from fentanyl can actually lead to death, we have to give them a prescription to Wean them off. It takes anywhere from twenty one days to three months minimum to Wean off of the fentanyl so that you don't become dehydrated and psychotic and all those kinds of things. Unfortunately, especially in a jail, they often are released before that time frame. So a good recovery program is minimum two years. Okay.

So the only opportunity we really have to truly assist in addiction recovery is with our sentenced felon in full programs.

And we are working towards that as part of a rehabilitative model. It's a twofold concept with actual counseling, as well as safe space where there isn't drugs, as well as, actually having the medication and the medical support that's there. I mean, addiction is one of those mysteries we continue to not be able to solve.

Then you mentioned about Telehealth and the lack of having a smartphone, for instance, for people who are released. The Laumaka Center, which I actually... Instead of calling it a rehabilitation center, I think a reunification. That language, which the report talked about. The report talked about using correct language that empowers.

And reintegration is the word, I think. Is it? It's reintegrated reintegration. Reintegration. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. But anyway, that that site or if it's a site that people can come to and go into a room and get the Yeah. What... The medical treatment.

Is that a possibility?

So as part of the 1115 waiver and with the consultant that the director mentioned, we actually did site visits. And allowing, ourselves as DCR to look at our sites through new eyes, we realized that we do have some space to do one on one contact, like like, visits with outside providers.

So just the final point I wanted to share with you guys as far as what we're trying to do with the eleven fifteen and mental health specifically is that we're sort of realigning our, our efforts where if eleven fifteen gets off the ground and the goal is to have a warm handoff, we actually want to be connecting them earlier with mental health providers rather than building rapport and trying to get a history and trying to be a provider when they're going to walk out the door any time.

Essentially, most of them don't stay more than three months. We want to introduce them to a community partner, therapist, psychiatrist, psychologist earlier and support that telehealth kind of relationship and focus the state providers on our sentenced felons since we will be living with them for years, and the rapport matters at that point.

Got it.

So that would be the thing is creating Telehealth while we're there, creating community community partnership while we're there, and then hopefully being able to transition them. If they do get released without us having a lot of notice, they would actually know where to go because they've already had an appointment or two. Yeah.

Sharon, I have a couple questions for Director Johnson.

Okay. Go ahead. Go ahead.

Go ahead.

Director Johnson, thank you. So I, you know, again, this report had to do with a new site, but and I think you've made reference to, but do you have documentation showing that DCR exercised its, you know, due diligence and obtained an evaluation and estimate for the renovations of o triple c's current site? And I heard there's been references made to an estimate of the cost. Right. 100,000,000.

Right. But do you have a... Is... Was that written and presented in a way that we can look at and...

I can see what what DAGS has because DAGS is working with... DAGS is the extended agency, and they're working with the consultant who is the architect and the planner. Okay. Great. So I can have them provide you that breakdown.

I wanna make it clear that we're increasing the bed space from one twenty to two forty in anticipation of the classification instruments stating that we are overclassifying people and keeping them at high levels of custody higher than longer than we should So then we open up that stream so that we have the best space capacity. Right. Okay. Okay.

Got it. Thank you. And then I'm gonna have my office manager, Kate Ozawa, follow-up with you to get that information. So thank you so much for that. And then regarding the...

You know, we mentioned Kauai, Maui Jails. So one time, the Maui Jail was the most overcrowded jail in the state. Right? And they've... Now there's there's space, and so that they've really, you know, addressed that issue.

What lessons can we learn from Maui to reduce the gel population at o triple c and m h c triple c on Hawaii Island without having to construct a new gel? Like, is it possible to bring down the numbers so that we can... For o triple c? Bring down the... Correct.

I think for for a couple of things. One, for Maui, I wanna make it clear. It wasn't the facility or DCR that brought the numbers down. It was a criminal justice system and the prosecutors who brought the numbers down by doing more diversion and deflection from the system. So I think whatever was...

Whatever Maui's prosecutor and the judiciary were were doing to working together to make sure they don't even come to our custody, I think that's what needs to be done across the board. Because we do not control the population. We have to take everybody that's sent to us by the courts with a white ruling authority. So, unfortunately, we're overcrowded at HCCC. We're overcrowded at at WCCC.

We're... I'll shoot it at OCCC. We're we're overcrowded at those two jails. Really overcrowded.

Wow. So it... There should be a mechanism then. It sounds like that the counties actually pay more for the people they overzealously incarcerate. I mean, maybe it would be a little incentive for the...

We don't get an argument from you there, but but we have a unified system. So, you know, in most states, 54 states, excuse me, 44 states, the jails belong... Owned and operated by the county and the prisons are owned and operated by the state. But in the six jurisdictions we have to be one of them, we have a unified system where the state owns and operates both. Right.

So it's like our public education system

Which is why our property taxes are so low. But are we tracking... So you mentioned you're making of more of an investment and commitment into this deflection program. From the moment you started, like, focusing on that and you recognized it as the reason why so so many places went a lower decrease in population, Have you... Since you've put a concerted effort into that pathway, have you been tracking the data?

Exactly.

We haven't been involved long enough to, I believe, provide the data, but we are working with Colonel Augustus. She's working with Dr. Harbinger from the judiciary. Harbinger. Sorry. Thank you.

I get names messed up. But Harabedian from the from the judiciary on receiving reports and some of the information you're asking for. So we can see where she is in that process.

Especially... Right. Especially Honolulu. I mean, the Honolulu prosecutor.

I don't mean to interrupt... I think part of the problem is that prosecutors, their goal is to, you know, public safety, which is fine. But I think when we have a program initiative to do deflection Right. And the requirements of the program are so stringent, you can't get the people into the program that need to be in it, then you increase the jail population needlessly.

Now, I believe in Maui, the...At that time, the prosecutor probably worked a great deal with the public defender's office and with the courts to do deflection upfront. We would do the diversion portion as much as we could.

Okay. So whose responsibility is to make sure that there is a place to deflect them to or divert them to? Would it be your, I think, or would it be the prosecuting... How the live prosecution...

They wouldn't be with us yet, so we have no jurisdiction. So it would really be the county and working with other state agencies like DHS and housing agencies to do the deflect... To do the deflection so that there are services for them. That's part of the problem. The Dade County model has the offer with the services and the funding.

The state doesn't have those yet.

Got it. And, and then I have one question and I'll take a break because I have more, but I'll take a break after this last one. You know, I heard administrator, Romy speak about being the envy of the nation in terms of the work they're doing. Is the work they're doing that she was referring to was the breaking the cycle of incarceration. Was that kind of the focus?

The exiting of it because there was an initiative, a national initiative, and they were providing technical assistance in person and virtual peer learning sessions. Support to define metrics and milestones. But did we apply to get those support resources?

We apply with, for federal grants as this illustration come up. We look to see, can that benefit the gaps in our system? If if there is a gap in our system and that that technical assistance, that's what they're called, for me the ACA or DOJ, and mostly it's Department of Justice, then we would apply for that grant.

Unfortunately, there are, well, it shouldn't be unfortunately, more non profits, there's more grant opportunities for non profits to partner with us than there are direct technical assistance grants for the actual DOCs.

Okay. So you write like supportive letters for their to be like, yes, we're working with them, give them... Funnel the money through them.

Right. And then they work with us and we look at the gaps in our system. So we we have quite a few, agency we work with in that capacity because that's where most of the grant money is.

Okay. Great. Thanks. Thank you. Great.

Representative Peruzzo, go ahead. Okay.

So I think that one of the... And this question is for you. I think one of the most powerful recommendations in the breaking cycles report had to do with cultural programming, as part of rehabilitation.

And given that you are operating a unified system, I'm really interested in some of the barriers we've seen to implementation of Makahiki in particular. I think it's becoming clear that, you know... I know wardens kind of, run their own facilities.

But I'm wondering if there's also a role for you to maybe step in and provide some guidance for the wardens because it seems to me that there's conflicts around, you know, how it's being characterized.

Is it being characterized or categorized as education? So then it conflicts with other educational programming. So then they're denied access to the Makahiki process and preparation. Or... And then the other question I see or issue I see arising is that, inmates are being asked to choose one exclusive religious preference.

And so that if you identify as a Christian, then you wouldn't be allowed to... And you use that as your chapel time. You wouldn't then be allowed to participate in Makahiki. And I'm wondering how you are kind of navigating that set of conflicts.

Okay. So the Makahiki is... We do the Makahiki based on a settlement agreement That the state went into. And in that settlement agreement, it specifically states in order to participate in Makahiki that the inmate needs to be a, cultural Hawaiian religious practitioner, which means he he or she has the... Has to make that designation.

But that... Just to clarify, that doesn't mean that they are exclusively a native Hawaiian cultural practitioner. You can also be a Christian and participate in these cultural practices.

Not not... If not according to the settlement agreement. The settlement the settlement agreement is specific and we can send it to you guys. It is specific to that and that's why I think I had a discussion with the oversight commission coordinator. She had indicated that why can't people have multiple religious options at the same time.

The problem with that is is that we find that a good number of the folks in our custody and care change religions based on the meals for that season sometimes. So, with the makahi what we decided to do was because we weren't required to to implement the Makahiki in Hawaii. It was specific to the Sewer facility. So, in order to protect the state, I directed the wardens in the prisons within the state to allow the Makahiki but stick to the settlement agreement for now.

So the settlement agreement has some specific requirements in it that we need to follow.

So that's what we're doing.

So... But the settlement agreement doesn't bind you in Hawaii?

No. It doesn't. But this is the first time we're doing it. So we're trying to put parameters up because what would get us in trouble, I believe, is if we allow one facility to do the marquee one way and another facility to do something else.

Right. I agree. I think that unified approach is really important, which is why I'm speaking to you about it. Right. And I just...

I am so familiar with, kind of, hybrid approach to culture and religion in Hawaii. It's actually... I'm hard pressed to find or to think of folks who are not navigating multiple, religious spaces or cultural spaces, regularly. And then to ask the inmates to make that... I mean, I understand your reasoning, in the sense that you seem to not want them to avail themselves of unnecessary or, like, you know, unreasonable benefits, the meals.

Right? But to me, it seems to be undermining your goal. If your goal with Makahiki is provide that rehabilitative process that will then, facilitate a successful reentry into society, you you... I mean, I feel like you're crippling your own efforts by making it so constrained and and constricted.

Well, I think, again, I'm trying to stick to the settlement agreement because this is the first time we did it in Hawaii. That's not to say next year we do lessons learned and we do something a little bit differently. But also most of the jurisdictions across the country allow for a single religion and they can change every six months on the religion.

I think what you have to understand is that we live in a litigious society and if we allow inmates to to have five or six different religions, but they can't get to all those services because they have programs to complete, then the state opens itself to the potential litigation. The second thing is I think we have to not lose sight of the fact that we have limited infrastructure in our facilities to do program so we have...

We allow an inmate to sign up for three different religions and we... And this person says, okay, I wanna go to these three different things, this date. And in order to do that, he or she misses out on required programming in order to get paroled. We allow them to do this, then we're keeping... Potentially keeping a person in custody longer.

I wanna make it clear too. We have approached OHA in the past and asked them to bring in, Hawaiian practitioners and services to the Hawaiian population to the inmates in our custody care. Deputy director, Sala Munoz, and I met with them twice. Nothing came with that when the previous director was there. They recently contacted me about the restrictive housing bill, but when I told them that any any effort to return that...

Oh, excuse me. They contacted me about returning inmates to Hawaii. I told them, any effort to bring inmates to Hawaii unless there's a huge change in the criminal justice system has to be the the building of a new prison because we have no place to put the 800 plus inmates we have on the Mainland here and they indicated they would contact me before the legislative session began. We did have a meeting schedule and so it's not for lack of trying on the department's standpoint.

I think from our standpoint, we also have to look out for the state with respect to potential, costly litigation.

But again, Christian mentioned it to me about other jurisdictions. I am not opposed to having inmates practice more within one religion, but we need to make sure we have the facilities, the staffing, and the ability to do it because if we do allow it and then we can't do it, we open ourselves up.

Sure. I mean, I appreciate that but just following up.

So, can I can I answer one question? You went back before you said about about, there being some concern about it being considered educational versus cultural. We did have a issue at one of the facility wardens where the inmates reported through miss Johnson to me that, they were being told that they could not sign up for the Makaheke because it interfere with their program. I addressed that immediately and that's now taken care of.

Okay.

I did the award in that this is not an educational program. And that, if they decide to go and they miss some of the educational classes, then they voluntarily decide to make that decision on their own. So we we got that straight, but thanks for mentioning that. I appreciate it.

Yeah. And I guess the only thing I would circle back to and kind of reiterate is perhaps, and I will go back and, read that agreement, but, or the settlement, but perhaps, Makahiki and these kinds of cultural practices and that rehabilitation possibility, the the space it creates for rehabilitation, can be considered not as religion and also not as education. Because, I think that it's possible to, have it occupy its own space under cultural programming. And I know, you know, it was...

The settlement or the agreement really addressed, like, these...

The religious concerns. But I am really convinced that the folks who are engaged in that learning process have a much firmer foundation when they come out... Back out into the community, a personal foundation. So that... I just offer that for your consideration.

Thank you.

Representative Shimizu.

Thank you, Director Johnson. You know, you mentioned earlier that the new facility completed... Was it late thirty one, thirty two?

Is that what you said? That's approximate. Yes. That that would be a completed facility? Yes.

Would you say that some of the animal quarantine redesign is is contributing to any delays?

I think a decision has to be made regarding the AQS. Yes. Whether we tear down part of it and we leave the remaining structure where it is, which means we might have to do another EIS and a PRU which could take two years or tear it down and then rebuild it.

Again, the problem with that is I believe the estimate we received from the last director of that agency was $60,000,000 or so and I believe, the governor had asked, that director to, this, try to lower the cost of the facility. And so that those issues are with DAGS and the administration and that director but I can tell you that if something isn't done with AQS, we can't proceed with the o triple c and every month we delay is 3 to $5,000,000 in construction escalation costs.

Had we built the facility in 2017 when it was proposed, it would have been $537,000,000 there about. Now the projections... A little bit... The projections are based on a thousand bed facility. They're reworking the numbers for the 800 bed facility, but it's a close to a little over $1,000,000,000.

And so the longer we... It's not it's not... To be clear, it's not an issue of do we need a new facility? We do. The facility is decades past any type of real rehabilitation.

It's old, it's antiquated, it requires a lot of staff. I wanna make it clear, either there'll be a facility with less staff, it doesn't mean that they're gonna get the staff, the inmates get less care and then we can't have some dynamic supervision because every facility had different levels of supervision. Right? Dynamic supervision is really for the lowest level of the folks in the facility. Right now, the ACO complement of H O Triple C is four twelve ACOs.

A new facility would be less than 300 but that wouldn't be that wouldn't mean that we would actually have less inmate to staff ratio. It it because the design would be more efficient. It would be used technology wherever we can. Like, if you go to go triple c now, we have multiple housing units that require a sergeant and two ACOs.

In a more modern facility where you have direct line of sight, you can do that with three officers and 60 inmates instead of 30 or 35 that the current housing units hold. Sure.

Can I ask another question?

Yes. Go ahead.

No. This is a big question, but what would you say in your experience looking at the whole situation? What would make the biggest difference as far as your job and the effectiveness of your department?

I think if the director, not necessarily me, you could be the next director, had more latitude with the population in our custody and care to release people into the community based programs and get funding from the legislature, dedicated funding to put the people back in the community so they can get those wraparound services because right now, our cost estimates are $339 a day in custody here in Hawaii. Hundred and thirty five zero seven at the FTC and 120 something in Arizona.

If we can provide, we can reduce the jail population by 200 and we can have those people in community based services, the state would save millions upon millions of dollars because they're not going back and forth to court. They're hopefully not committing more crimes and are getting this wraparound services, case management services they need.

So, even if the legislature doesn't give the director the authority, they still need the services in the community to do any type of real deflection and that's what's missing the off ramp for the services of the community.

Whether that's with the police, the judiciary, or discretion to the prosecutor. Those services are needed irrespective whether they come to me or not.

So so how do we make that happen?

What's what's? You get the state, I would recommend you get the stakeholders to the table. And that would be not just the prosecutors in addition, but you bring in Hawaii Pro Day Authority, You bring in DHS. You bring in all these folks from these entities together and make them talk to each other and come up with a plan.

That's doctor Champion's initiative. That's the governor's initiative. So I hope that they're listening because they should be delivering on what they've set into motion.

I think there's.

And that it feels like it's not happening.

I think there's some headway because we were having, meetings with the Department of Health and doctor Champion and Aye. But, yeah, maybe maybe contact doctor Champion and see where they are because we're... We certainly work with anybody out there that will help us manage this population and provide services to the population. I think some of the concern... Some of the problems we have is we don't have enough hours in a day for some of the folks that wanna come in, and we do have staffing challenges.

We have about, almost a third of our ACL positions vacant, but that's not that's not unusual across The United States.

Well, and and just just... I I just wanna emphasize what, representative Schiminski said. So the game changer would be to see in the governor's budget request dedicated funding for community services. And it doesn't matter which department it goes to, but it's... That's that's what's needed is a commitment to dedicated funding for community services.

That would also be for the counties too though because the counties do the arrests and the prosecution. So it wouldn't just be on the state. I would say that's when you get the counties together too to to because they have sweat equity. They have they have they have something in the game which means they can make safer communities. So it shouldn't just be the burden of the state, it should be all the stakeholders out there.

Understood. But for us, we have to designate who the money goes to, and and mostly it goes to the Department of Health. Yes. So it's a coordinated effort by DHS, d... DCR, and DOH to ask for those dedicated fundings of community.

For community programs. And then to press DOH to make sure that those... And DHS and DCR to press that those get into into community nonprofit hands to be to be provided to to the people who are going into the Kahale, into the programs, whatever. Right? Make it work is what Aye...

I'm hearing from this committee.

Sure. Is that a is that a a legislative initiative, or is that a internal policy thing?

I think it's a request first from the department to demonstrate or from the governor to demonstrate from this administration that they really do want to solve this problem. So it comes first. If it doesn't come through the governor's budget, then it becomes a

legislative initiative. Right. And then also just to clarify, all of his department heads testifying to all the committee chairs and committees that they support this comprehensive initiative. Let's make it happen, man. Let's make it happen.

Well, actually, that makes me. Actually, one of my questions was.

Okay. Are you done with representative. I'll let representative, Iwamoto and then representative Perruso go ahead.

So, you know, obviously, pretrial, a lot of your population is pretrial detainees. So pretrial reforms to, like, cash bail for eliminating cash bail, for instance, like, all of these. There's various reforms that we can do to reduce that population.

Did you. Like I said earlier, department heads coming in and testifying in support of these efforts. Have you supported or championed these pretrial reforms?

Yeah. We're part of a pretrial reform with the the the efforts we have with the judiciary. But did I specifically come out and support them.

Yeah. Like, help me out, like, pass these reforms.

I'm gonna I'm gonna raise, and we have to get back to SCR 60. And Aye... This is important. I think I I do agree that this is important but... No way, Kim.

So you were answering the question which was?

Which was we support the pretrial pretrial diversion efforts but DCR did not. We stayed silent on the bail reform bill because it actually. We thought it was gonna pass.

Oh, okay. So in the future, you probably will submit to someone and say...

The only thing we will support any effort that will divert and deflect people from our custody that shouldn't be with us.

Don't take clearly should be with us, who come to danger, send them our way.

Thank you.

But I wanna make it clear, we need the services in the community to provide to these people that are deflected or diverted.

Got it.

Thank you.

Okay. Representative Perruso.

Yeah. So, you mentioned that, what you would like is that the director would have more latitude to release people into the community. And it's my understanding that, the wardens actually do have an. You know, I. Well, they can make recommendations about the reduction of minimum sentences when

That is correct.

Right? So I'd. I'm really curious about whether you are instructing the wardens to use their maximum capacity, their their power to do as much work as possible to reduce those minimum sentences. And I guess I would... I I think I'm asking for data about the number of people who are applying for that reduction and then how many are being granted from the various facilities.

I'd like to see if there is kind of a uniform messaging going out to the wardens, if they're hearing that messaging. Because what I am hearing is that you are... You do support the reduction of the overall population, and, you are asking for that power to release people in the community.

But I think what you're. What I'm what I'm. When I say release people early, I mean, those people who are in my custody and care be able to transition them to programs in the community Right. Faster to get them out. The reduction in minimum process is a little bit different.

The reduction minimum term process is if the person wants to have served one third of the longest minimum term, they can apply for reduction in minimum with the Hawaii Proling Authority. Irrespective of what, DCR recommends, HPA has the final authority Correct.

Reductions and so, I can talk to I can I would I would tell, Gene DiMello when we're done here, I'll tell him about your inquiry and ask him to contact your office to get specific information but it is in there in your report about how many applications are received versus those that are approved?

I'd like it broken down by facility. I'd like to know, which wardens are actively pursuing that and using that power.

I wanna make it clear. They don't they don't have... I mean,

I know it's. I know it. They don't have the final decision making power, but I also know that the rolling authority relies heavily on those recommendations.

K. Fair enough.

Okay. So we have gone about an hour and a half. We have the design center's breaking cycle study report is actually very broad. So we've covered a lot of ground. It's very broad.

So I really appreciate the department and your staff coming and talking about some of the programs, the training programs, the therapeutic, programs that are being implemented, and the funding request. I'd like to bring it back to just the facility because breaking cycles actually was was designed around the new o triple c. So I just wanna get really clear for this committee. What does that plan look like now? Because it's gone through so many iterations.

And you started off the presentation by saying it started off with a 1,300 bed proposal, 300 beds were gonna be in transition. Remind me, what does CTC stand for?

It's a community transition center.

Okay. So that's.

Work furlough. So that was a separate structure, though. I'm making a point.

So that has now been cut off from the physical expansion of OCCC?

Correct.

Okay. And that now... The department's, vision and work is going towards... For that piece, that 300 bed piece, to rebuilding the La Maca Furlough site.

Correct.

And you guys are gonna be coming in for a 130,000,000 ask next budget cycle for

It's in it's in our form a we submitted this year.

Okay. And that's going to be able to, so so for this committee to know that a $130,000,000 is being asked to increase the beds there or the the persons there from 120 to two forty?

240 beds.

Correct. Okay. And then what... So... And then I also heard you say that the 1,300 bed original OCCC facility went down to a thousand and has now even further gone down to 800.

Correct. And part of that is going to be you are in discussions with FTC for a 100, increasing their beds... Your rental of their beds from 100 to 300.

Correct.

When will you have a a report on that?

The MOA is now with their attorneys in DC to take a look at. There may be some changes they're gonna have to make and I'll explain them to you. One, the FTC has never been fully operational. It can hold up to 1,100 if it has to. It's never held more than 500.

Right now, the population is about 300, maybe a little bit. So there have been entire floors have been shut down for a while. So part of the MOA would be one, they'd have to bring those floors operational again. And then two, because we would be sending convicted felons, they are not pretrial because of the movement issue. They don't want that much movement in the facility for pretrial motions and such.

We may need to increase they may need to increase their medical staff because right now, it's a detention center meant for short term, short term incarceration and then they... If they're deporting someone, the US Marshals pick them up to get an order removed from court, the Marshals take them to their home country and they drop them off.

Some of the people in that custody, and Karen will make it clear, it's just like someone ours would never be able to go back because we don't have repatriation agreements with those countries, so they'll be in custody for long. But once your sentences are done, we have to release them for sure. Regardless of any detainers at all, we notified the Federal Government of the detainer and it's up to the Federal Government to go and pick the body up.

Otherwise, we have to let them go.

Okay. Okay. So the 100 to 300 in the FTC, these are gonna be convicted felons.

Yes.

Who are serving what part of their terms or are they also gonna be part of transitioning out?

They would... Both because it depends on... They will go there based on the qualifications we set with the MOA with the FTC. One of the concern is that we need to make sure that they have all the major programming done before they go there because the FTC is not set up to do those programming. So, as part of the MOA, this is what's taking so long to be honest with you, we're trying to get them to include meaningful programming.

Right now, they have little programs here and there, but, like, they don't have substance abuse treatment, they don't have GED, they don't have college courses.

Okay. I think that would be something good for follow-up because if that does happen, that immediately, like, provides 300 bodies that are potentially freed up from different facilities.

And, they they mainly come from Halawa because they're convicted felons.

Yeah.

So, the jails are triple c's. They'll hold them until they're convicted and once they get sentenced, once they get convicted, they're sent to the prison awaiting a minimum term hearing. They come back through the prison, but through the o triple c's when they're going out to work for a while. That's the only time.

Okay. K. Okay. But, again, I just... Knowing that all of the facilities are kind of, like...

Yeah. It just... It it provides some breathing space.

It does.

Okay. So that's happening. And then, talk to us and then just go for what's going on with it now, the 800 bed facility for Ochrys. And I heard you say $287,000,000 asks that you'll be coming in funding.

That's in our budget for fiscal year twenty nine, $287,500,000. We anticipate that to be one fourth of the cost of the new OCCC.

The consultants at DAGS are working on a presentation for the director of finance and the governor to provide funding options to the governor so so that the budget and finance director can then make a recommendation to the governor and then the governor would be able to speak to the leadership of legislature about the ask in fiscal year twenty nine amount and then what that looks like, how would the other three quarters of the project be paid for?

Okay. And then one last thing, I know that the DAGS lead person has retired. I believe he's.

Yes, Gordon.

Gordon. So who is now the new DAGS?

Eric is... He was here a little while ago, but we didn't need him here. Sorry he left.

Okay. So

And that was on me because I asked... I told him... I said, I I thought you were gonna concentrate on recommendations from the... So, that was on me. I told him I didn't need him here.

But, Eric, I forget his last name. But, he is the acting... He's the acting. I think they're rotating until they can fill it permanently. He is the acting public works administrator for DAGS.

Okay. Alright. Thank you. I think, and so I.. If you wanna...

Can you comment any further on the 800 bed facility?

So, we we haven't DAGS in our consultants redesign the facility down to 800 beds. So we we want with that BNF asked for, okay, what are the cost implications? What is the cost? What are the changes of the cost? Is there a change in the design of the facility?

Is there a change in the in the number of floors of the facility? And more importantly, how does that affect AQS still being on the site? So, they provide all that information to us. Once we once we get the presentation, I have no pride... No problem in coming back for the legislature and providing an update.

So I should have something before the next... I think it was supposed to provide quarterly updates. So we should have something from them before the next quarterly meeting to discuss. At that time, I can have DAGS order consultants come in and then provide information on the redesign cost projections and then maybe provide an updated timeline if we get the funding that we currently ask for.

Okay. Thank you.

A question about the financing. I recently saw you at a presentation, from, I guess, the fifth. I don't know what they're called. They're like construction

It was.

It was Concierge or something. Whatever. But they they do... They build infrastructure in The United States and Canada. And they mentioned that Canada used to be very pro p three, public private partnerships.

And then they realize, oh, there's a lot of problems. It might look easy on the surface or, you know, the department, but at the end of the day, there's a lot more problems with that. I was convinced by their move and their their pitch to not go down the p three, you know, pathway. Did they... And it seemed like you were the only person in the room who was pro pro p three.

Are you still pro p three or not?

I wanna make it clear. I'm Yeah. I'm not pro p three. Okay. What I was trying to get across to them was we have to come up with a funding mechanism that is the most advantageous to the state in the long run.

And this is why the consultants put together three, four different options at that at that presentation. So I have those and go over if you like.

Okay. I mean, do... Chair, did you feel like it's... I was at the meeting, but were... I don't know if you saw if there's video or...

Not a video. I just have the slides.

Okay. And.

I can kinda explain to you the the... The... There were four different recommendations Right. With the consultants Correct. Making a specific recommendation for the state.

However, BNF needs to analyze all those recommendations

Got it.

Depth to determine what is most advantageous to the state in the long run. Run.

Okay. Got it.

So so what I'm hearing is that the the p three is still... It's still under discussion.

It's... It was one of the recommendations.

Okay. Alright. So, again, we've covered a lot of ground. One last thing I would just wanna, not lose sight of is there's also best classification study

Right.

That needs to be followed up on.

We just finished the pilot project in August. Professor Janet Davidson said she would have the report to us, the final report to us before the end of the year. I anticipate sometime November, December. That report will help inform us as to our classification system and if we are indeed keeping people at a higher level of classification than we should and then we will then make the adjustments to our classification system. We have to provide training to the staff.

So, we, in the classification study, the pilot project, we had the current instrument and the amended instrument side by side. So, Professor Davidson is analyzing the data from both of those to determine if do we do meet... Do we need to make major changes? And if so, what are those changes look like and she'll make recommendations to us. And then we need to roll out the instrument, but also provide training to the staff that have to administer the instrument.

Okay. And we will... I will allow one more question and then we are going to wrap because, again, there's a lot that has been presented here, a lot for future committees to follow-up on, both on programming, training, coordination, federal funding... Not federal, funding request, and so on and so forth. So last question, and

then I'll wrap. So Aye... I'm just curious if that... I haven't seen the parameters for the classification study, but I'm wondering if it will address the ways in which inmates are sometimes, for example, from Waiawa or other... Or Koolani, maybe sent back to Halawa because maybe they filed a grievance or maybe they've done something that offended one of the ACOs or, you know, like, I'm really curious about this use of returning folks to Halawa and wondering how that fits into classification.

So if these folks are classified as minimum security and then they're sent back to Halawa, does their classification then change or are they just in the wrong environment? No. It would.

It could be a combination of both. One, people move down the system because they're compliant And they're program compliant, they don't have write ups, then they... Classification levels go down at certain iterations. They get to a minimum security facility, depending on the type of misconduct they commit determines if they go back to a hard bid, we call it a halava.

So, if it's a high or greatest misconduct, which means hindering or threatening, they go back. If it's a.

So, it's hindering or threatening, the ACLs.

There's plenty that goes back, but like hindering the ACLs from doing a job, threatening someone, assaulting someone. There's a whole bevy of violations we have that we take a look at. If the person commits a minor violation, they can remain there, but if it's a major violation, then chances are they'll get written up, get adjudicated. After the adjudication's over, if they found guilty, if that guilty, verdict determined, necessitates the level of classification going up, they would be returned to the facility.

So, one of the things we did was, just so you know, one of our facilities instituted a, what is it called? Tobacco testing program. So, I stopped that because why I do believe MH should not be smoking, they shouldn't. At the same time I thought, well that's my nini to go back to a hard bid because somebody got caught with a cigarette. It is contraband, I wanna make it clear.

So we stopped that program because one, it didn't have approval from the because it didn't make sense to me why would this one facility do this when we do stuff we try to standardize across the board. So, we stopped that program and I haven't seen any rise in substantial rise in any type of misconduct related to that particular issue.

So, I think what we gotta look at when we look at classification, look at how are we treating inmates and are we being over punitive, but also, does the does the sentence, meaning the return back to HAVA, does it fit the violation? That mean, that's the key right there. Because we don't...

If it all possible, we need to try to keep them in the soft bed as much as possible, but it's when their conduct is such that it pose a danger or to it it threatened to good governance of the facility, we have no choice but to return. But the classification study will help us determine, are we returning them too long? Should we bring them back downstream sooner? That'll help us.

Alright. Again, we've covered a lot of ground. I wanna thank everyone who who came to present. And I don't wanna lose sight of miss Johnson and the oversight coordinator so that we know that the advisory committee for SCR 89 is also concerned with the design center recommendations. Maybe you're looking at the more long term systemic changes that need to be made, and so that we'll be coming back at some point.

The advisory committee will be coming back and, informing the legislature about what's happening. Thank you all for this very productive conversation, and I think we have a lot to look forward to in 2027 legislative session. We are adjourned.