Senate Standing Committee on Hawaiian Affairs

This is the Committee on Hawaiian Affairs and a joint hearing with Committee on Energy and Intergovernmental Affairs. I am the Chair of Hawaiian Affairs, Tim Richards.

And I work for Tim Richards. My name is Glenn Wakai, and Stanley Chang is my wingman, Vice Chair of Energy.

Okay, thank you. We have one measure before us, Senate Bill 151, relating to Department of Hawaiian Homelands. First up, DHHL. Deputy, thank you for being here.

Chair Richards, Chair Wakai, Vice Chair Chang, we are here in strong support of this measure which would go support our initiative for geothermal on Hawaiian Homelands. I'll stand on the written testimony and if there's any questions, I can be here to address them. Thank you.

Thank you very much. Moving on. Mariah Yoshizu.

Aloha Chairs, Vice Chair. Mariah Yoshizu, on behalf of Ulupono Initiative. Ulupono stands in strong support of this measure. We think it's a great vital step in advancing our goals towards clean energy as we look to have renewable energy portfolio standard by the 2045 date, and we need to look at all forms of viable energy in order to do that.

This legislation will reaffirm the commitment to steward the Hawaiian Homelands by enabling DHHL to develop these resources and bring long-term economic and environmental benefits to the native Hawaiian beneficiaries.

There are similar measures across the country that have demonstrated that geothermal projects in their communities can catalyze economic development, job opportunities, and generate sustainable revenue streams for those communities. We think this investment is a great step to enhance our energy security and also support DHHL's mission to improve the welfare of native Hawaiians. Thank you.

Thank you. We have written testimony from Alice Kim, in support, Michael Kaleikini, in support. I have Rebecca Dayhuff Matsushima in person. Please come up. Identify yourself for the record please.

Good afternoon, Chairs. My name is Rebecca Dayhuff Matsushima. I'm testifying on behalf of Hawaiian Electric, and we stand in support of the bill and stand on our written testimony. Thank you.

Thank you. Now we have written opposition from Shelby Pikachu Billionaire and written support from Keith Neal. Is there anybody else in the Chamber who'd like to speak? Come on up.

Aloha, Chair. Hello. I'm in a position of this bill. We're concerned that $500,000 for this bill [audio fuzzy]. So I'm concerned for all of these reasons.

[Audio fuzzy]...and drilling in order to anchor the telescope. So this is again that same. So without going and consulting, I see in the testimony that it says here that the PIG is about to have their eighth meeting, but the PIG does not consist of beneficiaries. It's so different from beneficiary consultation meetings. This round is not a beneficiary consultation, and according to the Supreme Court--is that my time up?

Yeah.

Oh, okay. Can I, can I say about the Supreme Court?

Give you a little latitude. Yeah. 30 seconds.

Okay. So the Supreme Court, which was just interned mid last year, Supreme Court Kanahele vs State and DHHL stated, 'before the commission is to take action--and this is action--they are always to go and consult with beneficiaries.' So no beneficiary consultation, no action. This is taking action. God bless all of you.

Thank you. Anybody else, please come identify yourself for the record. You have two minutes.

Aloha, Chair. [Inaudible]. So you folks got to pay attention to the law. Borderline the State of Hawaii using the United States law...in Hawaii, going through, putting those two laws together. You folks don't even know what I'm talking about. I thank you folks. Thank you. Aloha.

Aloha. Thank you for your testimony. Is there anybody else who'd like to speak in person? Please identify yourself for the record and you have two minutes.

Yeah, Uncle. I agree. Uncle Roy, the ruler of lords, love the land, and all that, you guys, you guys supposed to follow him. Some guys lawyers or very educated guys. It's so simple. What Trump is doing, he's trying to follow the Constitution, follow the law, the rules. And yeah, he did some wrongs.

I don't think it's serious enough to whatever you going through. Seriously. I mean I did wrong right now. I had to pay the price. Here's one: look at his misdemeanor; was some kind of business guy the same way they follow with other business people.

So all you guys got to change you guys' Reddit or whatever you guys following, you guys' laws because it's coming down. I can see them. The truth is coming out, is everybody's on the table and they want to see transparency, everything. They want to see what's going on. They want documents.

You guys bring bills and everything and you got to back them up with history, with documents, and the most thing is seeking out for the nature and for the people, for the future of their children. That's what you guys got to be looking at.

Not that I hated your progress and your smart cities because what's happening now is all the little people, the poor people, he's been stepped on and you guys are moving ahead, which you guys real, you guys...dealing up all this stuff and we taking the burner and especially the real people that own this land and everything. So simple. Okay?

Okay. Thank you. Thank you for your testimony.

You guys really took my word for it because it's gonna happen. Yeah. I promise you that.

Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you for really listening to me. I see now you're looking on me and listening and I'll be okay from you.

Thank you. Is there anybody else wants to have--one more guy. Okay. Aloha.

Hello. Hello. I am Moses Natbiwa. Okay. What, you know, when they mention the rules of law and the thing is that are you--

Mr. Natbiwa, you have two minutes, so go ahead.

If you guys are following the rules of law, good. If you're not, who--we get locked up for that, not following the rules. But no. When you're talking about land, we're talking between, I would say, it ended when Queen Liliuokalani was overthrown. And that's really sad.

Now any law that was performed after that is known, you force the one who's actually breaking the laws. People have laws that you folks have to follow too. All laws is the same thing. It's parallel to Isaiah's laws, and this is law. But it's just an idea that seems like, you know, that 'I can't break the law.'

'I don't have to follow law.' And yet if it was the one who was breaking the law because people would understand what happened to Queen Liliuokalani. But anyway, what I'm saying is that you follow rules of law if people are honest. If it was not, well, let's go back to the Republican. Thank you very much.

Thank you for your testimony. Okay, so thank you. Thanks everybody for your testimony. Senators, questions? Yes, Senator DeCorte.

DHHL? Hi. So on your testimony you had explained or went into depth about slim hole drilling. What is that exactly and how deep drilling are we anticipating?

I would like to ask to bring up to our table Russell Kaupu, who is DHHL subject matter expert. He's been leading the charger geothermal and working with subject matter experts from UH, so, Russ, would you be able to help explain?

I could try. Aloha. Russell Kaupu. I am--I work at the Department of Hawaiian Homelands for the Chair in the Chair's office. A little bit of background, I used to serve on the Hawaiian Homes Commission and left that position to accept the position at Hawaiian Homes as a member of the staff, but while I was on the commission, I was serving on a permitted interaction group that was formed to investigate geothermal development on the Hawaiian Homelands, and when I came in house working at DHHL, I continue as staff on that, on that committee, if you will.

So the question, slim hole drilling, it involves drilling a hole roughly about eight inches in diameter, going down to depths that you're checking for both water and heat. I can't tell you the exact depths because that's not my--I'm not a scientific expert, but we are working with Dr. Nicole Lautze and the folks from the University of Hawaii and it's their equipment that has been proposed to be used for this slim hole drilling.

But I do know that the nature of the permitting that's required for the slim hole drilling, that to a certain depth, you are classified as water exploration and you have certain set of regulations and rules that you have to abide by. Once you go beyond a further depth, then you are in exploration for geothermal resource and it's a much higher level of regulatory research and--I mean regulatory compliance--kind of health and safety requirements. The slim hole testing that we're looking to move on to at Hawaiian Homes is at the, is at the shallower depths where it's characterized as water exploration.

What is shallow?

That I, I can try and find out that for you, but I don't know offhand today.

If you could get that and give it to--

Sure.

The committee and I'll distribute it.

And just one more quick follow-up. In 2022, the Legislature appropriated 500,000 for this project. Do you have any study, reports, findings, anything that you can justify the $20 million for fiscal year 26 and fiscal year 27? And the language that concerns me is 'as much as needed.' So do you have any reports, studies to justify that?

So we commissioned a group called Vika Consulting that did the study for us. It was at sites up on Mauna Kea on the east flank. We had the results of their--we have their report to our PIG, and based upon their recommendations, we have proceeded to do a second set of geophysical testing, which is what they were doing. It involves a physical observation and then a series of what's called magnetotellar testing.

Now, I'm getting way beyond my capacity to tell you what that means, but it's, it's the step in the testing to determine suitability of the ground and the presence of geothermal resource. Michael Kaleikini, who is one of our commissioners, he's on the, on the commission. He's on the PIG.

He submitted testimony, but he always reminds all of us that for geothermal exploration, you need three things: you need heat, need water, and then you need permeability for the subsurface because you need some way for this heat through the water medium to rise to the surface to generate electricity or generate power.

I think I understand the overall process of geothermal, but just as long as the breakdown of the budget, because this is a pretty large lump sum, and are you expecting that to be out of DHHL trust funds or taxpayer funds or--

It would not come out of DHHL trust funds. Yeah.

Thank you. That's it, Chair.

Okay. Thank you, Senator. Any other Senators? Any questions? We did have one more testifier that went in, so, IT, do we have Mike Ewall online? There we are. Mr. Ewall, we have two minutes.

Oh, gosh. I didn't realize this bill was up so quickly. All right, well, mahalo for having me. My name is Mike Ewall. I'm the founder and executive director of Energy Justice Network. We're a national organization and we have a couple member groups in Hawaii that have been very concerned and active on this issue of opposing waste incineration because it's the most expensive and polluting way to manage waste or to make energy, and this is something that I've researched extensively for--

Excuse me a second, Mr. Ewall. This is the wrong bill. We're talking about geothermal on this one.

I was wondering why that--I was being called on. Okay. I will wait until the bill is up then. Thank you.

No worries. We'll call you. Stay, stay in the wait room. Okay. So hearing nothing further? All right, we'll go into recess for decision. [Recess].

We're back in for decision-making. My Vice Chair is not here, so I'm going to need someone to call it. Okay. On this matter, it's the recommendation of the Chair to pass with amendments. First of all, there'll be some SMA tech amendments. I want to adopt the request for DHHL to establish a permitted interaction group to study, evaluate, and recommend strategies related to geothermal exploration, feasibility, extraction, and and/or use of Hawaiian Homelands.

Also, I want to blank out the appropriations that includes a portion about--or any--or whatever it takes. That'll be blanked out, and we'll provide a defective date for July 31, 2050. So with that, passing with amendments, Chair votes aye.

Members voting on SB 151, the recommendation is do pass with amendments. Chair votes aye, Vice Chair is excused. Senator Ihara is excused. Keohokalole votes aye. Senator DeCorte?

No vote.

Chair, recommendation's adopted.

Thank you, Chair.

For members of EIG, same recommendation. Any discussion? If not, Senator Chang?

I vote yes.

Okay, so SB 151 passed with amendments. [Roll Call]. Recommendation's adopted.

Okay, thank you. And Deputy, I want some of the questions and concerns that were raised by Ms. Myers, I'd like those addressed. And so I'll put some notes in the committee report to make sure that we have the top story to address some of your concerns. Okay, thank you. That Hawaiian Affairs Standard Journal.

Thank you for your patience.

We are now convening the Joint Committee on Energy Intergovernmental affairs and our friends from the Committee on Public Safety and Military Affairs. Yep. There's my wingman, Senator Elefante. I can't ride without him. We have one Bill on this agenda. That is Senate Bill 371 relating to property damage of critical infrastructure facilities. Person our testifiers list.

We have Andrew Martin from the Prosecuting Attorney's office or misrepresented there, has submitted testimony in support. Tricia Nakamatsu from the Attorney General's Office.

Good afternoon. Chair Makai, Chair Lafonte, Members of the Committee, Deputy Attorney General Tricia Nakamatsu appearing on behalf of the Department of the Attorney General. We did submit comments with suggested amendments to the Bill. Perhaps most significant is that we note the Bill seems to be limited to electrical power outages.

However, the term critical infrastructure is used under Section 708892, and that pertains to computers that are damaged and then affect critical infrastructure systems. That system actually applies to much more than just electrical power systems. So we would suggest adopting essentially that definition of critical infrastructure, which applies to transportation, gas and power, water, oil, things of that nature.

We did include the definition in our testimony, I believe. Okay. Well, we referenced it. I'm sorry. It just references section 708892.

And by doing so, we feel that this would be a lot more effective in accomplishing what the Bill seems to be aimed at doing, which is to prevent and deter damage to the critical infrastructure systems themselves.

As I mentioned, section 708892 currently only creates those heightened penalties if you damage or attack or interfere with the computer systems that control those critical infrastructures. We did have a number of other amendments, which. One of which is the State of mind for proving some of the elements.

We just felt that it would provide more effective prosecution and take away some of the defenses if someone were to assert that they did not realize their actions would have that extent of damages. We had a number of other suggestions, but I'm available for questions, if any.

Thank you, Trisha. And those in the audience. I failed to mention at. At the outset that we're going to have testimony limited to one minute. So, lucky Tricia, you got two minutes there. See what happens when you come early? You get a freebie. Next speaker. Jonathon Grems for Hawaiian electric. Oh, welcome, Mr. Grams.

Written testimony and strong support of the Bill. We welcome the proactive stance.

Thank you, Mr. Grems. And we also have Jacob Wansek has submitted testimony and support. Is there anyone else wishing to testify on Senate Bill 371, if not Members? Any questions? Okay. Good. We will take a brief recess prior to taking the vote.

We're reconvening our Joint Committee on with Energy Intergovernmental affairs and our friends from the Committee on Public Safety and Military affairs for decision making on Senate Bill 371. The two chairs have conferred and we would like to make a number of amendments to the measure.

We would like to take the AG's suggested amendments, all except for the last one. So there's three suggested amendments that they have in their testimony. The Fourth Amendment they suggested was to not to have explicitly put into the the Bill the manslaughter.

And their rationale was that prosecutors could use that as a charge if in fact someone passes away due to a lack of access to energy. But we two chairs have conferred. We like to make that very explicit and clear to anyone who's going to disrupt our critical infrastructure that you will be charged with manslaughter.

Someone perishes due to your negligence or balance there. And also the prosecutor's office from Maui had suggested that water should also be considered as critical infrastructure.

So we like to add water as another component to this measure so that we make sure that if someone does the same thing, poisons our water system and someone passes away or dies because of that poisoning, that there will be accountability for that individual who did that terrible action. So those are the suggested amendments and. Yes.

Any discussion? If not, Senator Chang, I vote yes.

Senate Bill 371. The recommendation is to pass with amendments. Chair votes I. Vice Chair votes aye. Senator is excused. Senator Richards. Aye. Senator Fevella? Recommendation is adopted.

Thank you.

Okay. Same recommendation for the Committee on Public Safety and Military Affairs. Chair. Okay. Chair Elefante? I vote yes. Senator Fukunaga. Excuse. Senator Rhoads. Senator DeCourte.

Chair your recommendation is adopted. Thank you.

We're adjourned.

We are convenient to Committee on Energy Intergovernmental and no, I don't have the military stuff anymore. Coming on Energy and Intergovernmental affairs and miraculously it's 3:15 on this Tuesday, January 28th. Just a reminder for those who are testifying, you will have one minute to see why you support or oppose the measures on this agenda.

The first Bill on this agenda is Senate Bill 585 relating to the issuance of special purpose revenue bonds. To assist Bona Pacific. On our testifiers list we have Ian Robertson from the Attorney General's Office not present on Zoom Chair, he's here with us. Thank you.

Chair Vice Chair Members Ian Robertson Deputy Attorney General we offered comments noting that the issuance of these bonds appears as if it would violate Act 262 from 2023 which amended Act 182. 2022. We did include language if the Committee wishes to pass this to avoid that issue and exempt these this authorization.

We also noted that in our search of the break records, Bona Pacific appears to be registered as an llc. But we presume that the Legislature anticipated that Bana Pacific will be reorganized into a corporation. Visits reflected in the title of the Bill. Thank you. I'll be available for questions.

Thank you, Mr. Robinson. Louis Salivaria from Budget and Finance has submitted commentary. Mark Glick from the State Energy Office.

Chairs, Members, Maria Tome with the Hawaii State Energy Office representing Mark Glick, we would stand on our written testimony in support. Thank you very much.

Thank you for coming, Maria. George Pritchard from Bana Pacific.

Chair Members of the Committee, My name is George Pritchard, President and CEO of Bana Pacific Inc. I'm here in strong support of SB585 which will enable the development of our integrated branch biogas and Green Hydrogen facility. A project that is not just innovative but urgently necessary for Hawaii's energy security and sustainability.

Hawaii imports 90% of its energy, leaving us vulnerable to volatile markets and supply chain disruptions. Meanwhile, landfills are reaching capacity and wildfires from unmanaged lands pose increasing threats. Our project directly addresses these challenges. Producing 1.5 million MMBtu of renewable natural gas annually, generating 400, 1400 kilograms a day of green hydrogen to support clean transportation.

Capturing and repurposing CO2 into the beverage grade, CO2 and dry Ayes industry for local support. Beyond environmental benefits, this project creates 200 plus local jobs, injects 20 million annually into Hawaii's economy while reducing 200 metric tons of CO2 emissions each year.

SB585 is a no-risk opportunity for the state, utilizing special purpose revenue bonds that are repaid solely from project revenues. This is the kind of forward thinking high impact investment.

You're at the end of your time.

I urge you to pass SB585 and help move away toward a cleaner, more resilient future. Mahalo for your time. I welcome any questions.

Thank you, Mr. Pritchard. I have testimony from William Anderson, Jewel Junker, Carlos Severson, Thomas Tay, Darren Yokoyama and Kyle Onaga, all in support. Is there anyone else wishing to testify on Senate Bill 585? If not Members, any questions? Have a question. So the AG said that the name on the Bill is not in. In.

In congruence with the. Yeah. Okay, so just want to make sure you're incorporated, not an llc, correct?

That's correct. We have incorporated and the conversion is being done as we speak with tcca. So I don't know if when they looked or when that's done, but the LLC has been converted or is being converted as we speak to a corporation.

Okay, and so you're perfectly happy with the title?

That's correct.

Okay, got it.

All right, Members, any further discussion of questions? Okay, thank. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Pritchard. We're going to move on to Senate Bill 964. And this is regarding waste to energy.

Thank you.

On our testifiers list, we have Mark Flick or Maria to Aloha Chair Members Maria Tome, Hawaii State Energy Office. We have testimony that is supportive of the concept and provides comments and suggestions. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Maria. Fern Holland has submitted commentary. We have Mayor Bisson in opposition, Melody Aduja in opposition, Alan Burdick in opposition, Wayne Tanaka in opposition. Paul Kuykendall also in opposition, Sherry Pollock, opposition. Mike Ewald in opposition. zero, sorry. It's your moment, Mike. Thank you for standing by.

No worries. Okay, so hi again, my name is Mike Iwa with Energy Justice Network joining the overwhelming opposition to SB964. Incineration is the most expensive and polluting way to manage waste or to make energy. There's not enough waste to build a plant on the smaller islands.

There are fixed costs with these plants and it'll massively increase the waste disposal cost to build incinerators and still have to maintain landfills for the toxic ash Life cycle assessments done on the industry, including one done just a few years ago for Hawaii County, looking at their use of H power versus landfills versus recycling, their paper and plastics found that H power is the most harmful by far and that recycling is the best option.

For the environment and health. Even with barging materials to continents, no new incinerators have been built at a new site in this country in 30 years, despite hundreds of attempts.

You are not about to change that track record in Hawaii, I can guarantee, because I've been part of many community battles across the country in these past three decades. And every time communities win, including just this past weekend in Miami Dade County, where they tried to build the largest one in the nation.

In that county, it would have cost them over 1.5 billion. And that's an economy of scale of 4,000 tons per day.

Out of time.

Okay, I'll just finish my sentence at the scale you build will be unaffordable. All right, thank you.

Great. Thank. Thank you for your testimony, Mike. We have Rebecca Deof Matsushima from Fine Electric.

Good afternoon, chair. Hawaiian Electric stand stands on its written comments.

Thank you. We have Christine Kubot is in opposition. Christopher Dean also opposite. Christopher Dean might be joining us via Zoom. It is there Christopher Dean online.

Yeah.

Hello. Welcome, Mr. Dean. You have one minute. Thank you.

I'm Christopher Dean. I'm the President of Recycle Hawaii, the founder of Clean the Pacific, and I've submitted written testimony in opposition to this project. We are against all incineration and waste to energy projects. I would just like to reiterate that we live in a circular universe from the atomic level to the solar system orbiting the galactic core.

Everything is cyclical except for one thing, our economy, which is linear. We extract, we consume, and then we dispose, and then we repeat and we live on a finite sphere.

That behavior is going to lead to and have included in my written testimony a paper submitted to the National Institute of Health that addresses the behavioral problems of humanity in dealing with a linear type of economy like this. And I would encourage everyone to thank you, Mr. Dean. Open that and read it. Thank you.

Thank you for your testimony. I don't have any indication of anyone else wishing to testify, but in looking at the written testimony submitted, I've counted 24 in opposition and eight in support. Is there anyone else here that wishes to testify on this measure?

Yes. Thank you, Chair Rai and Members Richards and Favella. My name is Ted Bolton and you're representing the climate protectors Hawaii. As some other speakers have said. Let me say up front, I respectfully oppose recognizing the desire of some to pass this bill.

But I first because as I stated, trash for as a way to handle waste is very expensive and very harmful to the environment, which is where my group comes in. But in addition to that it's like this bill is urging is requiring me to energy office to tell the counties what to do with their trash.

And that's been a community function. So I wonder why the state is stepping in on something this controversial. To order the states to order the counties to a certain way. As indicated there isn't the capacity on other counties to with the CA contract. So this seems to me like a poor idea as much as I.

I appreciate further energy and the need for.

Thank you and thank you. Appreciate anyone else wishing to testify on Senate Bill 964 Members. Any questions of those Senator? Mr. B.

Let me address couple of. Let me address a couple of your concerns and other people's concerns. This energy plant does not have any CO2 or biochemicals coming out of the stack. They have high tech brushes. It's going to clean it. Nothing coming out. I'll give you one later on. You guys can look. Okay.

Another one is Conventa right now is thinking about trying to do a waste of energy plant in the back as you're talking about. It will be recycled and put into construction material. And then for the neighbor islands what is going to do with the contamination police that they have there.

So I'm not telling them to build a plan that wouldn't fit Maui county not asking them to build a plant in Hilo that they got to drive all the way to Kona to dump the rubbish every day. There always one way to dump trash. How clean for an environment that you're using diesel.

Chance of the truck breaking down truck dumping rubbish on the side of the road and having one complete true is to energy plan. So the research that was done on this and I listen to a lot of testimony and I see it's very inaccurate, very inaccurate. Because the waste energy plan that is imposed to here.

You know why the state is proposing this to the city. The city doesn't have a what to do without having landfills right now. They want to put it over an aquifer. You want to at least you want them. Exactly. That's the reason why this is proposed to have a clean energy land. No wind use, no solar farms.

Clean from energy. That's what it is. And then you guys talk about the cost. Look at the Federal Government to subsidize that our state for whatever reason do not tap in to clean from energy brings to energy plant at all. We will subsidize it.

That's something that I'm going to work with the energy office because a lot of stuff you guys talking about cost it will not cost the county amount of money. People saying because we have federal subsidized and then if state have land that can work with the counties and we'll work on that here legislatively.

But all of the stuff that we're seeing to here is a little bit off of what the Bill was intended. It was to help the counties and the Kim community to get rid of their biohazard waste that they cannot get into a landfill. And one of them was Lahaina. Thank you Chair.

Thank you. Do you want me to respond or appreciate your comments. Thank you very much. And I and I recognize the the challenges that counties all face. I would say that this Bill only applies to the other counties besides Oahu.

And I also say that the idea of using the toxic ash that comes out of a trash plant on the roads is a really bad idea. I'm the same for construction material. They will not have any human contact with the material. Appreciate your comments. Thank you very much.

Thank you. Chair.

Yeah. Since you're up here and ask you a quick question. Sure. There's been a lot of evolution over time and I've visited waste energy furnaces on the mainland when I was in county. With the evolution of technology in your opinion have we gotten better as far as the the toxic concerns.

Is a good idea?

I will refer you to the Comments on the 3 year old who's a national expert on this and I think he would tell you that the you know he did say today that nobody has cited a new transplant in simulator in the United States on a new site in 30 years and the reason is because the technology is not there in a safe way and the communities don't want it.

So that's my answer.

Okay. And I appreciate that Ted. And thanks for your input. I think with Senator Favela's highlighting we have a problem. We're an island. What are we going to do? And so I appreciate seeking the way forward on this. But Senator, can I ask one more question for Mr. Eall?

Sure, of course.

Okay. Thank you. Mr. E.

Joining us online. Good.

Yeah. Yes, I'm here Just question following up on that and listening to Mr. Bolan opinion concerning where we are with the technology for cleaning things up.

Sure. So most incinerators have four pollution control devices. Each one takes out different pollutants. Now H Power, their two older plants are missing half of those four pollution control devices. So that's the status quo is pretty far behind.

But EPA was poised to come out with new regulations for this industry last month that got punted Back a year. So it'll be December of this year, maybe. We'll see what this Administration does with that.

But what happened is EPA picked the weakest of three options that they were considering for eight of the nine pollutants and the middle one for the ninth.

So even once these new regulations come out, which were supposed to be updated every five years, but we're currently still running on 2006 regulations, it'll be at least 2029 before they come out. And they're far too weak to be anything that would be considered modern or clean if that were such a thing in this industry.

But what Senator Frivella had said about there's no CO2 coming out, no other pollutants coming out, that's patently false. I just did a whole report for the Miami Dade county situation looking at the 4,000 ton per day incinerator that they were proposing that they just decided to abandon.

And that report looks at the cleanest and newest one in the country, which is the second one they have in West Palm Beach, Florida, models that with the newest regulations that almost came out so they would have to lower 2 of the pollutants 40% to meet those regulations.

And even with that, which will be the strictest in the country that this has ever seen in the us it would still be one of the largest air polluters in Miami Dade County.

So let me stop you there. If you have data on this, I'd like to see it and ask you send it to the chair so we can review it. Sure, I'll be happy to send it to each other. Thank you very much. Thank you, Chair.

That information. Any other questions?

So each bar is nowhere near. Each bar should have been shut down a long time ago. Technology was pulled when we built the third boulder. I'm looking at data that I have here and I'll give you a packet to emissions that will come out.

And CO2 again, guys, is not dangerous for hell, no matter what anybody say, without CO2, we cannot live here. Just to let you know, but the emissions of CO2, so 700 tons of waste on the CO2 emissions is none. Depending on what technology you use, you can shake your way. That's cool.

I don't want to be argumentative, but I get the data that I've been doing this for the last four years. So Singapore, all these other countries, including Canada is using this. They have one idea in Singapore that they have a ski slope on the top. And you know why that is?

The atmosphere of, of the, of the air coming out of the steam is so hot it hits the atmosphere and makes snow. So I, I did a lot of research on this and I understand you you saying what you said but the information that I got is is more broad on how it is behind.

How are you even behind the times to looking at windows and everything else if it wasn't a good idea? And why is Coventa right now introducing do a waste to energy plan and try move away not closing H Power but right now thinking about putting out one bid for a waste to energy plan.

And I asked him I cannot support that waste to energy plan unless you're going to have a time that you're going to close age power. And they said they're not. So again, if the idea wasn't there, then they wouldn't be trying to do it. That's all. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you.

Would you like a response to that? Please.

Was there a question? No. Okay, thank you, Mike. We're going to move on everyone to the next measure on the agenda. That is Senate Bill 996 relating to renewable energy. Our testifier is this. We have Michael Angelo from dcca, Consumer Advocate.

Chair, Vice Chair, Members of the Committee. My name is Michael Angelo. I'm the Executive Director of the Department of the Division of Consumer Advocacy at. The Department of Commerce and Consumer Affairs. Stand by our testimony providing comments. Thank you.

Sure. Thank you, Michael. Mark or Maria Tome from Energy Office. Thank you, Maria.

Leo Asuncion from the PUC will stand on the written testimony in support and providing comments.

Thank you, Leo. Rebecca Dayhuff Matsushima from HECO.

Good afternoon Chair. My name is Rebecca Dayhuff Matsushima with Vice President of Resource Procurement for Hawaiian Electric. I'm testifying on behalf of Hawaiian Electric in opposition to SB996 unless it's amended. We do have concerns that this Bill could unnecessarily raise rates for our customers.

And we believe that the solutions in SB 1501 and HB 974 would be better for our customers overall.

That being said, we did provide an amendment that if power producers were required to provide clear and convincing evidence that the increase in costs to their projects are due to the company's credit rating, we would be okay with C Bill. Thank you, Rebecca.

Frederick Ridal has submitted testimony support and Sandra Larson also in support. Is there anyone else wishing to testify on Senate Bill996 if not Members? Any questions? Leo, that's a quick question. Hawaiian Electric wants to put in specific language, I guess to kind of trigger this process and potential rate increases. With clear and convincing evidence.

But considering that the PUC would have to kind of vet whatever the case might be from the power producer, you would determine. Right. If there's a rational reason to increase the rate. Correct?

Correct.

So put this language in there. You would. I mean, it's not like you're going to just arbitrarily say here, submit an application and we're going to bump you up.

Correct. But what Kinko is proposing, we kind of leave that as like a requirement. Like just another piece of information that would come in. You're correct. Right. We will take all of that information and then one more decision.

Okay, got it. Thank you. Any other questions? Okay, thank you. We're going to move on to the next measure. That is Senate Bill 1068 relating to renewable energy. On our list we have Mark Blick or Maria Tome testimony in support.

Thank you.

Thank you, Maria. Rebecca Dayhuff Matsushima from Heco. In support, Mariah Yoshizu.

Thank you, Chair and Members. Mariah Yoshizu. On behalf of the Ulupono Initiative, we stand in strong support of this Bill as we look to reach our 100% renewable portfolio standard by 2045. We need to look at all forms of viable energy, and geothermal is a cheap firm resource that we can tap into for that.

We also appreciate the community aspects of this Bill in emphasizing community engagement to build trust in the program. Thank you so much for hearing this measure. Sure.

Thank you. Noel Morin has submitted testimony support. Alice Kim in support. Neil. Excuse me. Keith Neal in support. And Peter Sternly also in support. Is there anyone else wishing to testify on Senate Bill 1068? Any questions, Members? Okay. Mariah. Yeah.

Neil Morin suggested that we put, uh, kind of in charge of this program rather than as outlined in the Bill. The Hawaii State Energy Office, what are your thoughts on that?

From my understanding, I think, uh, has been doing a lot of research on that, but I think working in conjunction with the HSCO will be really beneficial. I think that anything that supports moving geothermal forward and whoever is having maybe the most background or the most resources in that is something that we would support.

Okay, so you're punting.

I mean, I know that Nicole Lauzzi has been working, I believe, with Heco. I know she's worked with a couple departments on this Bill, so I know they are very connected, but I'm. I can't say which. I guess I would have to get back to you on which would be our firm recommendation.

Thanks.

Thank you.

Sorry, Maria. Oh, no, sorry, Maria. Not Maria. Sorry, I forgot you were in the audience there. What are your thoughts on the suggestion that the leader on this effort is going to be uh, Groundwater and Geothermal Resource center and that you would be kind of playing second seat to them? Should it be the other way around as.

Or is it as written now with you as the lead better or should uh, be the lead on this?

I would need to check and get. Back to you on that.

So we keep it as is and then maybe by the Next Committee if it gets there, you can. I'll see what our seats.

Yes.

Thank you. Members. Any further questions on this measure? We are going to move on to the last measure on this agenda. That is Senate Bill 1071 relating to energy financing Honor testifiers. This we have Michel Angelo from dcca stand by Rich.

Comments by support.

Thank you. Michael Grand Yamamoto LA from Hoy Green Infrastructure Authority. Great. Thank you, Gwen.

Leo Asuncion there Members will stand on the written testimony in support and provided comments.

Thank you, Leo. We have Susan Roberts Emory from Green Party Hawaii in support. At Hope, are you. Oh, no, sorry. Cherry Pollock from 350 Hawaii is in support. Forest Frizzelle also from Shifted Energy in support. Paul Orem from Photon Works in support. Steve Lark Parsons from the Kauai Climate Action Coalitions in support. Rocky Mold.

Is Rocky Mold here? Nope. Okay, well, Rocky Mold from the Solar Industry Association is in support. Leah Laramie has indicated she might be here, but not. And she is in support. She's from the Climate Change Mitigation Adaptation Commission. Ted Peck from Holua has submitted testimony support William BC from Solari Corporation, Solar Ray Corporation in support.

Wendell Choi in support. Isero Villaflor in support. Mike, excuse me. Donna Fisher in support. Michelle in support. And I got a whole bunch of people in support. Is there anyone in the room that wants to testify on this measure if not Members? Any questions? Okay.

We will break briefly before taking the vote. Thank you for your patience.

We're about to take the vote for the Committee on Energy and Intergovernmental affairs on our 315 agenda. First item on this agenda is Senate Bill 585 relating to the issuance of special purpose revenue bonds to assist Bana Pacific Incorporated.

We're going to take the AG suggested language, the language that cited that it's going to be a carve out of Act 182. And we did confirm that this is the proper name. So the suggestion is to pass this measure with that AG's amendment. Suggested amendment. Many discussion if not Senator Richards? I vote yes.

Chair votes I Senator Chang is excused. Senator Coit is excused. Senator Favela and Senator Richards votes. I chair, you have three in favor. Motion is adopted.

Fantastic. Okay, we're going to move on to the next measure that is Senate Bill 964 relating to waste to energy. We had a very lively discussion on this measure and I wonder what's all the tools in the toolbox?

So if waste your energy, I mean there's no perfect feed into renewable energy out there and if this is still additive to our aspirations to get to 100% renewable, willing to move this measure along. I will make one amendment though. Right now it's a mandated for the HSEO to establish a public private partnerships. I'm going to partnership.

I'm going to change that to may establish that just in case if there is no possibility of a public private partnership, they're not going to be forced to come up with one. They hopefully can explore it and we'll find something that will make Senator Favela the happiest man in Hawaii. So that's the suggested amendment.

Just to change it at a May before the establishment of a public partnership language. Any discussion?

Yeah, true.

Yes.

Yeah, thank you. Definitely heard the comments. Questions, concerns environmentally and I am sensitive to that. That being said, I agree with Chair Wakai on this because I want to explore all that. So I'm going to be supporting it with reservations knowing that we're not done on this measure yet. So with that.

Please take the vote to pass it with amendments.

Okay. Senator, Chair Wakai. Yes. Chair votes aye, Senator Chang is excused. Senator DeCoite is excused. I vote reservations. Senator Fevella, aye. Chair, you have three in favor. Measure is adopted.

Great, thank you. We're going to move on to the next measure that is Senate Bill 996 relating to renewable energy. I would like to pass this measure out with technical non substantive amendments. Any discussion? If not Senator Richards? I vote yes.

Votes I Senator Chang's excused. DeCoite is excused. I vote aye. Senator Fevella Chair, you have three in favor. Motion is adopted.

Thank you. Next measure is Senate Bill 1068 relating to renewable energy. This one focuses on geothermal and I'd like to pass this measure out with just technical non substantive amendments. Any discussion? If not Senator Richard's aye vote yes.

Passing with amendments. Chair votes aye. Chang excused. DeCoite excused. I vote aye Senator Fevella. Chair, we have three in favor. Motion is adopted.

Fantastic. The last measure on this agenda is Senate Bill 1071 relating to energy financing. See the wisdom of us helping those who might have some financial struggles and putting and joining the rest of us in moving forward on renewable energy and solar is a. Is a good option for them.

And if they can't afford it now, then this program will help them be a part of the solution. So I'd like to move this measure out with just technical, non substantive amendments. Any discussion? If not Senator Richards? I vote yes.

Chair votes aye, Chang and D are excused. I vote aye. Fevella?

Aye.

A three in favor. Motion is adopted.

All right, thank you. We are adjourned.