Senate Standing Committee on Education
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Hey. Calling to order the Joint Committee on Ways and Means and Education. This morning we're going to hear from the charter schools who will be presenting their supplemental budget requests. Good morning. Good morning.
- PJ Foehr
Person
Aloha. Chair De La Cruz, Vice Chair Moriwaki, Chair Mikado Kim and Vice Chair Kidani. Members of the committees. My name is PJ Foehr. I'm the Deputy Director at the state Public Charter School Commission. I'm here on behalf of Dr. Ed no. Our Executive Director and Commission Chair, Maklubua Alan Castor.
- PJ Foehr
Person
I'm joined by Danny Vasconcellos, our Finance Director, and Diane Goya, also our Early Learning Programs Director. I'm going to share just a few successes related to the work of the commission which aligns to Edn612 and then also the work of some of our charter schools in our portfolio, which aligns to Edn 600.
- PJ Foehr
Person
So just really quickly at a glance, this is the current portfolio as it exists. We have 40 charter schools currently. That's due to the closure of one school this past year and the opening of three new schools. Two of those are pre K only charter schools and one of those being Namahana School in Kilauea, Kauai.
- PJ Foehr
Person
So that's how we get to the number of 40. At this current time, we have 13,000 students just above that currently enrolled in charter schools across the state of Hawaii.
- PJ Foehr
Person
Of that 13,000, the largest demographic that we have is our native Hawaiian population, which is 37, comprises 37% of the enrollment in public charter schools in the state of Hawaii. That also includes that.
- PJ Foehr
Person
That that Native Hawaiian population also includes or the 13,000, the only Kayapuni schools that are on or public schools on the islands of Kauai and Molokai. Yeah, next. Next slide. Skip that. There we go.
- PJ Foehr
Person
So as far as enrollment is concerned, like I mentioned, we've gone up to, you see a steady increase from the inception or the creation of the charter commission in 2014. We've now increased up to over 13,000. We've seen a steep increase over the past two years of almost 1,000 students.
- PJ Foehr
Person
So our public charter schools continue to provide a choice for the people or the parents in the state of Hawaii. We expect that number to continue to grow a bit with our two most recent schools, Kalia Academy in Kalihi and Namahana in Kilauea, Kauai.
- PJ Foehr
Person
They're both on slow growth models over the next couple years going up to the 12th grade. So we expect that number to continue to increase a bit.
- PJ Foehr
Person
There. So the successes, Kademy, which did open last year and is expanding to 12th grade over the next couple years, was identified and did really well in their initial year and was the top performing. That says school statewide. That is not the case. We were corrected. It is the top performing charter school.
- PJ Foehr
Person
They are one of the highest performing middle schools. But I think think Mililani Ike in is the highest performing school. So we, we were corrected on that. But they are the top performing charter school statewide in their first year of existence. We opened the three new charter schools like we said.
- PJ Foehr
Person
Those two, you see Parkway Village Preschool and Waikiki Community Preschool are two preschool only charters and both of them are full with students at this point. We also want to highlight that one of our successes is the ongoing work and the update of our strategic plan to focus on systems.
- PJ Foehr
Person
If you could go back please to the early learning slide there, the key, one of those key successes, we continue to work with the lieutenant Governor and the Ready Keiki initiative to open classrooms for early learning opportunities for students across the state of Hawaii.
- PJ Foehr
Person
That includes those two preschool only charters that you see there, which comprised 10 classrooms. We opened another five classrooms this year year as well. We'll open one more classroom next year and 14 the following year. Those 14 classrooms we're working with closely with SFA. They do involve some new construction and they are on existing charter school sites.
- PJ Foehr
Person
Let me go back to. This slide. So as I mentioned the charter school, one of our successes is the continued revisit of our strategic plan.
- PJ Foehr
Person
You see there the key point being in this middle of the systems, we really continue to look at that goal four and designing systems of continuous improvement, assessing what we're doing, making sure that we're meeting our statutory requirement to authorize high quality charter schools, monitor them and do what's necessary.
- PJ Foehr
Person
The last slide would be just to quickly thank our volunteer commissioners. We do appreciate the work they put in. And then from there we would like to go to table six. Wait, can you go back on one? Sure.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
So there's this slide and then you can you go back to your accomplish your successes? So do you do any analysis to see trends on why the clothes, the schools that close?
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
If there's a consistency or there's patterns of why they close and when people, when some of the schools have success, there are patterns that you see and then how do you make sure you kind of implement those, what you learn from those patterns into the new strategic. Plan, the patterns of the school.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
So if there are certain like Things that you, that you recognize. Wow. Every school that we gotta close experiences these same three or four things. And every school that does really well does these three or four things.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
And then I'm not sure if you can, if you are able to extract that and include that in your strategic plan. So we can minimize future closures.
- PJ Foehr
Person
So as far as patterns are concerned, one of the parts that we've done, and I had deleted these slides from the presentation. That's okay because we have the full presentation. So if we look now, if you look in the presentation, go to the next.
- PJ Foehr
Person
One of the things we'll be putting up to ensure some of that transparency and make sure that we can identify patterns. We do collect data that's used in renewal from the standpoint of identifying patterns.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
But there must be some anecdotal, right. Like you think, wow, the principals really need these qualifications or they need these many teachers or the student ratio or the environment. There has to be, you know, I don't know it's anecdotal at this point. But if you, if you ever to track that so we can.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Yeah, you know, then, you know, if they didn't meet those certain, if they didn't have those things that you need to succeed, then don't open. You're not ready yet.
- PJ Foehr
Person
Right. So, okay, that's a two part then response. One of which is as we've been compiling data, it's been in house, we're unveiling and putting up in February public dashboards regarding the three frameworks which we use to monitor school performance. So that'll have academic, financial and organizational.
- PJ Foehr
Person
And I think to your point, the organizational piece may come around about assessing a school's capacity to implement its plan and its contract. So that's. Are they meeting their statutory requirements? Is the governing board asking the right questions, say at a governing board meeting, are they following up on their finances, holding the principal accountable?
- PJ Foehr
Person
Those are pieces that we do collect anecdotally at this point, but we'll be able to put them forward on a public dashboard that has each charter school that you can dive into each charter school's performance.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Okay, so if you were to get ahead of that, then if that seems to be an issue that lots of principals may not have the financing background or skill set, is that a class or some certification that you would require or provide to make sure that you provide assistance ahead of time? Try to stop the train wreck.
- PJ Foehr
Person
So two parts again. One would be the application process, which we're in the middle of now, we worked on last year and improved it. We believe we made it better. We need to continue to make it better.
- PJ Foehr
Person
So the more stringent our application process is to ask those kinds of questions of people who are proposing new schools, we can make sure that we're authorizing schools to open and supporting them, that they open in a successful mode as opposed to finding too many struggles.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Yeah, because the one in Wahiawa was having trouble for several years. Correct. And it's really hard on the families.
- PJ Foehr
Person
So with exist. Yes, it is. It's really hard. And with existing schools, we have stepped up our efforts to monitor governing boards and attend governing Board Meetings to make sure that their oversight is asking the right questions and collecting that data as well. And part of that is putting together governing board resources and training. What I'm.
- PJ Foehr
Person
I'm actually doing that right now with three volunteer governing boards who have joined a work group to assess our practices. And we're out of that. Going to develop some resources that we can share with all governing boards.
- Danny Vasconcellos
Person
And these dashboards will be public facing. So not only are these available to the public, these are going to be available to our governing boards and they should also be the ones going through the different data, data sets that are going to be available.
- Danny Vasconcellos
Person
And as Deputy Director 4 has said, we've been monitoring or we've been trying to work more with the governing boards on that oversight and with the different tools that we'll have available.
- Danny Vasconcellos
Person
This is definitely going to be one of, we hope, our strongest tools that again, we can make available to the boards to say you should be going through the data.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
So do you have an accreditation practice. Or charter schools are not required. No. But for you guys, just because if we see schools closing, you would want at least some. And you're trying to monitor.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
So can we formalize the monitoring process by actually doing some type of or building out an accreditation system that you guys oversee to make sure that all the different schools are meeting certain standards. So you can see these things way ahead versus waiting for it to fall apart and then now you have to come in and react.
- PJ Foehr
Person
So to address that, part of what we've been doing is systematizing our monitoring practice. So each school gets an annual report of the data that we're showing here, academic, financial and organizational. So. And commissioners receive that as well. So that just as you said, it's not a surprise decision.
- PJ Foehr
Person
We don't suddenly, after five years, show data and a school surprised. Each of those annual reports has areas of strength, but also areas of deficiency that they need to improve on that we've noticed, whether it be meeting organizational framework or underperforming in academics or perhaps at a moderate to higher.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Do they know what all the standards are at the beginning so they can continue to strive for them? Yes, but you don't have a real, you don't have a formal accreditation or even informal accreditation process.
- PJ Foehr
Person
Not accreditation. We have the contract and we monitor the contract performance.
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
And just to build on that. So two things. One, as you see some, as you monitor it, you see some problems. Do you have training or do you help them so that they do succeed? And secondly, if you are closing, what are you doing with the kids that are in the program?
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
Do you have an exit strategy that you can assist so that they're not just left out in the cold?
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Yeah, especially because it is a hardship for the families.
- PJ Foehr
Person
Correct. Regarding if we notice deficiencies, we continue again, the governing board is the authority over the school directly, like the Director about practices and operational and what to do to correct the issue. We continue to monitor what we've identified as a deficiency. This the authorizer is allowed to provide technical guidance. So we do provide technical support.
- PJ Foehr
Person
But we also. So in other words, working with the governing boards on what good practices for governing boards are. But as far as identifying specific corrective actions, the governing board would work with their Director to put in place the practices to correct what we've pointed out as deficiencies.
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
Yeah, but you would have a fund or does the governing board have a Fund for training professional development so that you can prevent the closure if possible through, you know, helping the either the faculty or the Administration in terms of really providing the right kind of service.
- PJ Foehr
Person
That would be up to each school to allocate the funds to do that. Our office through EDN612 functions on our staff and the supports we provide, whether it be technical assistance or monitoring so we can gather the data and let them know how their performance is from EDN 600, the per pupil allocation.
- PJ Foehr
Person
The that is where governing boards then authorize the how they use their funding and where they allocate it to.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
You may want to relook at that because if they're individually looking at training, then there's no consistent training versus if you guys develop a training that everyone needs to at least participate or attend, then there's consistency in training.
- PJ Foehr
Person
No. That. So each school is Their own in state agency. So they, they conduct their own professional development related to their mission. It's not.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
The skill is not there that's the problem. Right. And so they're the. When you have skill, at least you.
- PJ Foehr
Person
Each of their contracts has performance data that they need to achieve. It's, it's. You're right, it's, it's not across the board. Yeah. It's expensive then for the charter schools. Correct.
- Michelle Kidani
Legislator
But is there, is there an opportunity for you guys to share with the charter schools some of the performance evaluations so that you prevent those schools that are struggling from having to do it on their own?
- Michelle Kidani
Legislator
Because if there's a step ladder or something that they can look at and you share it with the charter schools, it would be helpful to them so that they don't make the same mistakes.
- Danny Vasconcellos
Person
One of the things we're doing, we're currently in the renewal process for 13 of our charter schools. And in this renewal process, one of the items we just almost released under our current charter contract is a performance report. So it does take the data from the term of the contract. So usually that's about four years of data.
- Danny Vasconcellos
Person
Right. It's hard to get the data for the current year, but four years of data are collected and presented in this performance report. And then this report is then given to the charter school and its governing board as part of the renewal materials. So the schools as well have the data, have the information the.
- Danny Vasconcellos
Person
That the commission will be utilizing in terms of making renewal decisions and going forward. Part of the monitoring process that deputy Director for has mentioned is that we do have different teams out at the charter schools on an annual basis.
- Danny Vasconcellos
Person
Our performance frameworks team that monitors the contract and the three frameworks that make up the contract are out at the schools at least twice a year physically. So that's a chance for them to go out, talk with the school Director, talk with governing board. They'll even talk with financial staff, with SASAs.
- Michelle Kidani
Legislator
So is there a website you can share with all the charter schools of ideas or missteps that happen and you don't without naming the school that you know so other schools can see.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
They did name one school so we can just be transparent about that. We did what? There is at least one school we know publicly that closed. Yes. Yeah. So if you were to refer, if you were to relate her questions to at least that one school. Well, how do you Use the, the lessons learned.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
What are the reports that were generated so that you could share that. Do you even have like a newsletter for all the, the, your, a commission newsletter that kind of goes over training.
- Danny Vasconcellos
Person
And we do a monthly newsletter that we do provide, as you know, to our subscribers as well as most charter schools. The other item we do have is our commission general business meetings. We do have the materials readily available. They're posted with our agenda. So we create submittal reports.
- Danny Vasconcellos
Person
So when we were going through the unfortunate non renewal of Kamalani, all the different reports that the commission used in making its decision and you know, coming to that decision are readily available to the public.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
You guys are old enough where I think it's time to mature even a little more.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
In regards to some of these more formalized processes and if you, you look.
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
At consistency in some standards. So if you're looking at performance and you're actually evaluating and you can, you can have training that you could develop, professional development that you can send these people to and it's consistent and not just I'm going to, you know, hire this person or hire that person.
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
So I think that's what we're looking for so that you can really elevate.
- Danny Vasconcellos
Person
Yeah, we probably have started that maybe more on the, I want to say administrative and practical side. We do have a annual training session in April. Either schools are, can either come in person or participate remotely. But we'll bring together things like working with the DOE systems. We'll have ethnics discussion there as well.
- Danny Vasconcellos
Person
So we've I think started maybe the rudimentary items that you're looking at. But in terms of let's say formal governing board training, I know that's something we've been looking at and thinking about. And again, Deputy Director Poor has been sort of leading that charge, so he might have more.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
I just want to point out though, the weighted student formula for charter commission is slightly different than the weighted student formula for doe. So I think the dollar per pupil is little higher. Right. Because you're based on the, the charter. The formula includes Edn 100200300 and 400.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
But not all of those monies go directly to the students at DOE in those, those four program IDs. But you get the, the formula allows you to have a weighted student formula based on those 444 doe. Even though they don't spend it all on students. Correct.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
So that's where if you took some of that money since it's like slightly inflated for the commission to do these more overall things to help the system? I think that would be prudent.
- Danny Vasconcellos
Person
I think that's something we can definitely work with the legislatures and education Committee on going forward. Know the one thing with the EDN 600 allocation, it does go directly to the charter schools.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
You should look at that so that you can formalize some of these things with consistency. Evaluation and training is not just educational and professional training for the teachers, but really operations. Right. Training for operations for the governing boards. Yeah. Are the. Are the governing boards all subject to Sunshine Law?
- PJ Foehr
Person
No, in Charter Law 302 they are not subject to Sunshine Law. However, they do have public requirements for posting of agendas and minutes and time frames and that. And that's outlined in 302D12. I believe it's 302D12H.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Okay. Is there a requirement on certain items that should be on an agenda throughout the year at some point throughout the year, like the evaluation or training opportunities, financial numbers and there should. That way at least it's forced to be public.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Versus just this, you're writing them a letter and it's never really required to be at any meeting.
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
Closure and what your procedure is. Do you have that formalized?
- PJ Foehr
Person
It depends on how the closure is structured or goes. If a school does something egregious and has to be closed immediately, we have processes in place to notify the parents, be able to help and work with the school and the parents to get them placed. This past closure that took place went over the course of five months.
- PJ Foehr
Person
We identified the school closing in January, closed by June. And we were able to work with the schools around in the area and with the current school staff to make sure all the students had a place. Parents obviously have the choice to go where they wish to go with their children.
- PJ Foehr
Person
And then we worked with Department of Education to make sure cumulative folders were sent to the appropriate schools.
- PJ Foehr
Person
And so we have a process in place to work not only with the school, but with the DOE and to make sure parents have all the information necessary for surrounding schools so they can choose their next step for the children.
- PJ Foehr
Person
Well, I believe we identified them for non renewal years prior or four years ago.
- PJ Foehr
Person
And then it went through an appeal process with the Board of Education and we were asked to offer Them a new contract term and we did for two years. So it was. They were in operation for four years.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Was there any harm done to the students during that period of time?
- PJ Foehr
Person
Academic performance that we could see the data came in pretty midland. It wasn't. They weren't on the highest quality, but it wasn't also our lowest performing school academically.
- PJ Foehr
Person
And the area based on parent testimony during some of the governing Board Meetings and processes is that they love the school and that it met their kids needs in that area. So academically we didn't see that. That's again to senator's point, that's more anecdotal data than say formal.
- PJ Foehr
Person
But during our monitoring processes they didn't flag highly for academic low performance. It was more financial. Financial challenges.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Okay, it is in that situation. But in others it could be harm to the students in the meantime. Right. While you're mulling over or trying to get it closed for four years and if students could be harmed in that in the future, I think we need to look at.
- PJ Foehr
Person
Correct. And that is to the point why we're really making sure we can get academic performance data public so that everyone knows what we're looking at. The school can see it. It's all public facing data. You don't have to go digging for it.
- PJ Foehr
Person
You can go onto our website and you'll be able to identify a school and see what the performance is so that there aren't any surprises and that commissioners, the public, anyone can look at that. That's a good point. Pardon?
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
We can ask if so just that there's so much information. How do you find it? You know, some sometimes.
- Troy Hashimoto
Legislator
So that's correct. So for the closure. So in this case I would assume that it was a clean closure. You said it was financial issues. So what if you know a charter school ends up with a huge amount of debt, who assumes that debt does that come back to the state?
- Danny Vasconcellos
Person
We have to work with not only the school, but we also work with in this case, Department of the Attorney General. They'll handle or they'll take the lead on looking at any potential liability issues that come up. And we usually take our instructions in terms of priority.
- Troy Hashimoto
Legislator
But I guess what is the mitigation strategies? Right? Like in theory you're supposed to be getting these compliance reports. I would assume they're not filing it. That could accumulate and what do we do?
- Danny Vasconcellos
Person
Or that could be potential reasons for closure or non renewal. No, exactly.
- Troy Hashimoto
Legislator
But if it takes multiple years for us to eventually close it down.
- PJ Foehr
Person
We do monitor their performance on a quarterly and annual. So they do submit quarterly reports and our schools are generally very good about getting the reports in if it comes late. It's not usually very late. Right.
- PJ Foehr
Person
Part of the closure protocol is there's a point in time where the commission gets access to their bank accounts and makes sure that we're able to monitor the funds in the bank accounts and we also have make sure that we can pay off all debtors and creditors. We get a list of that.
- PJ Foehr
Person
So part of the closure process is identifying what bills are outstanding and making sure there's enough money in the bank accounts to allocate for that. So that's part of the process. If there isn't enough. That's a question that then we begin to work with the Department of Attorney General and find out what we can do.
- Troy Hashimoto
Legislator
But I would hope that we would never get to that. Right. Because then your reporting requirements should be valid enough.
- PJ Foehr
Person
Our intention. That's why we try, we keep up on those, those quarterly financial.
- Troy Hashimoto
Legislator
So is there anyone, are there schools that you are concerned about that are. What's that number?
- PJ Foehr
Person
One of our slides? No, no, no. The financial framework slide. Keep going back. There. So we have a risk assessment model in place to monitor the finances for our schools. You can see that the schools, the majority of them are in the low and acceptable.
- PJ Foehr
Person
The one school that's in a high risk at this point is our newest school or Julia Academy, which has only been open for one year. So they're still there. Some of their numbers aren't growing yet due to their student population. So they're still young.
- PJ Foehr
Person
That number should move more towards the acceptable and low over the next two years as they add students and we monitor what that ratio is. I can say having attended their governing Board Meetings, their governing board monitors this closely.
- PJ Foehr
Person
They do it in their governing Board Meetings and they go over their finances in detail, including their year to dates, budgets, cash on hand, etc.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
What kind of financial reports do you. Get from each of the schools?
- Danny Vasconcellos
Person
Quarterly, we get the school's P and L as well as their cash flow statements. Again, that comes to us quarterly. And then at the end of the year, all charter schools as well as the commission are required to go through a financial audit.
- Danny Vasconcellos
Person
So in some schools, cases, especially those with higher receipt of federal funds, they'll go through the single audit process. So these are outside auditors that the schools as well as the commission have to contract with at what point are.
- Michelle Kidani
Legislator
Yeah. That they can start looking for. In trouble. Yeah. I mean the process takes a while, but.
- PJ Foehr
Person
I'm sorry, I jumped the gun on there. I thought you meant when they're closing brain scenes thing.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
You see where it says hi the one. Do they know now that the parents know, hey, your school is in high risk financially.
- PJ Foehr
Person
Not. We don't send them a notice saying their school is in high risk. That's part of why we're putting that financial dashboard on the website so that public can access the governing Board Meetings are open to the public.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
We don't send notice to the parent. Okay, so the answer is you guys don't send. Correct. But do you require the school to send. We do not require that point.
- Michelle Kidani
Legislator
When a child's education is not. Not is going to be interrupted, shouldn't the parents know so that they can plan what happens on the day that the school close or it takes a while for them to decide, make decisions. Can they afford something else or does a child now have to go to a public school school?
- Michelle Kidani
Legislator
And I think that's important for parents to know or guardians to know. Right.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
You know, I think we got to reassess the accreditation component maybe and formalize some of these processes maybe and then relook at the weighted student formula for you guys so that the inf. I don't want to. I guess I don't want to describe it that way, but I don't know another word.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
But for the inflated part of the weighted student formula because it's not equal. Weighted student formula for charter schools is slightly higher than it is for doe. So the difference should go to the commission so that the commission can do the administrative work it needs to.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
At least a portion of the difference because then you can do the training and accreditation and the communications.
- Michelle Kidani
Legislator
Okay, but do you have that data when schools close, where those students go and how long it takes them to be placed?
- PJ Foehr
Person
With Kamalani, They. We. We monitor that with them. And we, the students all found homes. We track that. The ones that moved out of state, we have their folders or files here at our. At our office. But we, we track that data. When that's happening, it's it Kamalani. I think who. Who closed before them was Halo Kahi.
- PJ Foehr
Person
So it was a few years ago. So we, we haven't had to do that. Thank goodness. But at the same point we need to understand that and it's part of our process is to track where students go.
- Michelle Kidani
Legislator
I guess what I'm asking. So if help is needed for these students to find other homes. Yes. How long does it take? I mean, are they waiting weeks before their place? They know ahead of time they could start the process to find another school. Do you guys have that data?
- Danny Vasconcellos
Person
We can put that together in terms of the last closure that we went through with Kamalani. I think in this case because the school, I want to say accepted their non renewal and worked with the commission and were able to wind down and close out the school year.
- Danny Vasconcellos
Person
You know, the children were then, you know, the students were able to finish up at Kamalani and as and because they knew they weren't, the school was not going to be open the following year. Again, worked with the DOE area schools as well as with other charter schools that parents and students were potentially interested in.
- Danny Vasconcellos
Person
So it is something that the commission as well as the school itself worked with their students on.
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
You said they accepted the non renewal. You don't have the authority to close the school and say these are, these are not criteria not being met. You're going to close the school. They have to accept a non renewal. Or can they?
- PJ Foehr
Person
The commissioners can authorize the non renewal so they don't meet their performance. There is an appeal effort or option that they can appeal that decision to the Board of Education. They chose not to.
- PJ Foehr
Person
The prior time when the commissioners approved the non renewal for Kamalani, they appealed to the Board of Education and the Board of Education gave us the choice of continuing on a contract or offering a new contract for a term decided by the commissioners. So there's an appeal process.
- PJ Foehr
Person
That's what they can appeal that decision to the Board of Education this time they chose not to. That's what he means by accepting the decision of the commissioners. And so they worked with us to close the school over time.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Okay, so they don't have any ads then table 6 is correct. You know, but their weighted student formula will be based on the ADS we put into one EDN100200300400. So their budget could still change based on us. Any changes to DOE's budget, any impact.
- Danny Vasconcellos
Person
And there currently is a reduction in Table 5 to the per pupil. It's about 1.8. But again, that's the Executive budget request. Yeah. So no additions. Yeah. That's just a point in time until we get to the end.
- Michelle Kidani
Legislator
So at what point did the. When Kamalani did the parents and students know that they were going through the process so they could start looking.
- PJ Foehr
Person
They knew it early in actually the decision, the governing board made the parents aware of the renewal process and the non renewal in December of the prior school year. The commissioners made their decision in January. And so parents were made aware in January.
- PJ Foehr
Person
And through the appeal process timeline, which put them into February parents, it was confirmed to parents by February of that school year that the school would be closing and that they would be working with us to place their students for the following school year. So they had four months.
- Michelle Kidani
Legislator
Okay, so they were able to close out that school year. Correct.
- Brandon Elefante
Legislator
Okay, why don't we move on? zero, go ahead. I have a question on table 11 vacancy report. So at the top of your vacancy report, it's for November 30th of 2024. Do you have an updated vacancy report for 2025? And are you actively recruiting to hire for these vacancies?
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
But that's not your role. Right? The school got to go because the school has to go and recruit themselves.
- Danny Vasconcellos
Person
And our apologies for the typo. This is our updated vacancy list. If you're looking primarily at the preschool teachers, that's part of the Ready Keiki initiative expansion program that we're currently working on from last year. We did have a larger list.
- Danny Vasconcellos
Person
We can provide more details, but we have some teachers in a teacher prep program as well as the new opening classrooms which led to the reduction in this list. So again, but who. Whose responsibility is for the recruitment?
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
And as I noted in the at. Some point what we could do is write a letter to the each school that we see the high number of vacancies and ask the governing board, what's your plan?
- PJ Foehr
Person
And in the list that we talked about the preschools opening classrooms over the next year, one classroom, next year, 14, the following. These are positions that are cited there. So we're trying to get them into training programs so that they walk in prepared for those classrooms.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
What's the total cost of travel for the year? What's the budgeted amount?
- Danny Vasconcellos
Person
This does. Our travel table wasn't totaled. Just a quick estimate that I give that I can give you right now to be probably in the $70,000 range if it includes our early learning program.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Can you turn that into us? We want to know what the total cost of travel and what the budgeted amount of travel. So did you stay within your budget went over your budget or under your budget.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Okay, but to put it in context, do you have any oversight on the schools on their travel? No. Yeah, so that one. This one is charter school. Slightly different.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Yeah, but we still want to. Yeah. What? The. What? The travel. And then maybe.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
No, we should. But the accountability part is. Is a little awkward.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Maybe you can also tell us what schools was the highest travel travel school.
- Danny Vasconcellos
Person
We can request that information from the school. From the schools, yeah.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Okay. Why don't we recess for just a couple minutes so that libraries can set up? Okay. Recess. Thank you.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Okay. Reconvening. Okay. So next we're going to hear from the libraries who will present their non existent supplemental budget requests. So good morning.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
Good morning. Happy New Year. It's so nice to see you all. Thank you. Chair Dela Cruz and Chair Kim and Vice Chair Moriwaki and Vice Chair Kidani and Members of both of the committees, thank you for this opportunity to share with you a brief presentation about our public libraries.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
And we do actually have a little bit of a budget request. I'm Stacy Aldridge, state Librarian, and I have with me my awesome colleague Mallory Fujitani, who is the special assistant to the state librarian. So our libraries continue to be community hubs where we create opportunities for all to read, learn and connect.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
I want to first thank you all for the support that you gave us for rebranding our libraries in 2022. We did a survey of the public and we heard very clearly from even our users, they didn't know what services were available at the library.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
So you have, you gave us funding to do a project to bring awareness and to invite people back into our libraries. And so we launched in May of this past year, 2025, and we've seen some really nice increases in the use of our services.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
We had a 44% increase in the number of people who participated in Summer Reading Pro program this year. We've had a 66.4% increase in the use of some of our online databases for learning. We've had an 18% increase in the number of people coming to our programs.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
And we've seen a 10% increase in the number of people coming into our libraries. So it is making a difference. We also were able to institute an e newsletter that goes out to all of our users, which is about 400,000 emails.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
And we have a 47 to 50% open rate email read rate, which is actually pretty good for a newsletter. And we hear from people because now they really know about our services and programs and we can see little bumps. And the use of ebooks. We've seen a 7% increase in the use of our ebooks.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
We also continue to involve our services around digital equity. Libraries are the best place for people to learn how to use all the digital tools that are available and to be able to manage in a digital environment.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
And we have, we finished up core classes across the state, digital literacy classes, and we've just implemented our Digital Navigator program, which has Digital Navigator 4 hours twice a week in all of our branches where individuals can sign up for up to 45 minutes for individual help on particular issues that they're having with technology, which is very popular.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
And we've had about 520 appointments already in just three months. So people want to have different ways to learn how to use their technologies and it can be as easy as how do I turn off my phone? And we've again, people have found this to be a very important service for them.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
We continue to innovate around the foundations that we've built with RFID. We added 7 self check shelving units in our libraries. You can see one over at the Hawaii State Library.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
A library patron can come back and just put their books on the shelf and they'll check in right away and, and then they're left there for people to see what else people have checked out.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
And then they can check out those materials, which saves time for staff because they don't have to reshelve all the time and patrons can see what's back in the library. We're also looking to expand our services by doing a pilot project with a book locker in Hana.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
So the hours of Hana are difficult because it's hard to find people to actually keep the library open. So we continue to look for a new librarian for Hana, but our janitor and one staff Member do a great job.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
But to increase those hours of access, we're going to be adding a book locker so people can pick up their holds after hours so they don't have to wait until the library is open. And we continue to build our collections. People still like paper and plastic.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
We had about 3.5 million items circulated that were paper, 1.7 million items that were digital. So those are ebooks, audiobooks and magazines. And we were excited to add the Nihau collection of stories in our in our Lehui library. So we're very excited. We were able to expand the stories to Kauai.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
And we continue to look at what kinds of programs and services can we implement to create equity of access. And this year, Matt Brown, our manager of our library for the blind and print disabled, started a book club.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
So he has a book club for the Members of the library for the blinding print disabled service who come the he can get up to 60 people who are just having a wonderful time getting together and talking about books. There's celebrations every year. We're going to be celebrating Louis Braille's birthday at the end of this month.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
And so it's another program. And they also have Dungeons and Dragons, which is pretty amazing. They have special dice that the users can can use to play. So we're continuing to look at expanding our programs for everyone. I wanted to do a light touch on LSTA. That's our federal funding.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
So we receive about $1.5 million from the Institute of Museum and Library Services in Library Service and Technology act grants to state funding. It's a formula based program and all the states receive the money if they can continue their match and their maintenance of.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
Many thanks to the Attorney General's office who made sure, along with 20 other states, that the program continued because DOGE shut down IMLS in the spring and 21 states went to court and they were able to keep it. So we were able to keep the funding that we have for their fiscal. Federal fiscal year 25.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
We have about 400,000 left of those funds that we have to spend by September. We don't know about FY26, so we're just federal fiscal year 26. So we're waiting.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
If we don't get the funds, it will directly impact the digital services we have available like New York Times, Mango Languages, some of the more popular online tools that are available to everybody. So that's just a little bit about our LSTA funds.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
And as we look ahead, we remain grounded in our mission and inspired by belief that every person who walks through our doors or counts a, or connects with us through our online resources has access to what they need. And they also have a welcoming space to learn, dream and to thrive.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
And we're happy to answer any questions, but we also did have two requests of the Governor that were not considered and we would respectfully ask consideration for.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Okay, we just. What are they? Part of the decisions table.
- Jessi Hall
Person
I think so. I think so. Our original request to the Governor was 1.5 million.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Yeah, I see that. For security. For security, yeah. Okay. And then.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
And then did you. Have you guys been trying to work with DLE to help?
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
Yes, we're meeting with them. We, we had to go to a new contract for security because we were having horrible experience with the other security company.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
And so when we went to the new company, which is more expensive, we did do a review of all of our libraries to identify the ones that would be less impacted by not having security guards. We, we looked at our data on incident reports, we reviewed everything.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
So there are about five libraries that we could pull back on and we've been talking with them now on how can we support the libraries where we don't have security. So we have about 35 libraries that.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
It's in addition to the cost that we have the current budget that we already have. So we need 1.5 added to the base.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Okay. And then the CFP requests. Oh, it's not there. What was it?
- Jessi Hall
Person
5 million for planning and design for four Oahu libraries. Ewa beat, Kalihi Palama and Kaimuki existing libraries.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
Yes, yes. And to upgrade any AC electrical, all the things that haven't been upgraded since they were built.
- Jessi Hall
Person
So we right now we have in the existing biennium budget we have 25 million in lump sum CIP Fund for both 25 million and 26. And 25 million. 27. I have pre existing projects that are ready to go out to bid for in 2026 as well as 2027.
- Jessi Hall
Person
So we pretty much have used up all of our lump sum funds and we actually still have projects that are waiting. Could use some construction funds if we have, if we were had the opportunity to spend more money. They're ready to go. So that 50 million that we have in this biennium budget will not lapse.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Okay. So RIM things I think can be handled under operating though, right?
- Jessi Hall
Person
I'm sorry, Rim. Yeah. Yes, we do have 1.5 million in our budget for repair and maintenance.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Okay. But like for instance, changing out an AC if the lifespan is not longer than 78 years, you don't need to put that in cip. You can use that in cash.
- Jessi Hall
Person
It depends on. Yeah, depends on what we're replacing. Yeah, yeah. And we have tried to do some with the cash when we can.
- Samantha DeCorte
Legislator
Yeah, no, the CIP lab chair with regards to the Pahoa Library. So the county hasn't moved and also would the funds be lapsed?
- Jessi Hall
Person
Right, those funds are going to lapse because they lapsed and we have to. We would have to encumber them by June 30th of this year. Yes. And the issue with the Pahoa Public Library is that we were going to co-locate on county owned property which they have identified through that planning process.
- Jessi Hall
Person
The county has not yet acquired the land. So because of the title of the cip, which is Pahoa Public Library and transit hub. And we don't do projects, including transportation projects, and we're waiting for the money to purchase the land for that transit hub.
- Samantha DeCorte
Legislator
Yeah, well, that was kind of interesting because I thought it was going to. Be on state lands and I thought the community has been having, I think recently about the proposed new library and I didn't attend that, but I'm just kind of concerned that not given the right information. So for many years we.
- Jessi Hall
Person
We looked at many different. But there's really no. A lot of the land in that Paho region is on lava zone one and two. And. And so it was. And. Or it's in really poor areas for the.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
So you're going to just continue to stay at the shopping center?
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
Well, we're currently in a high. In high school and we're still working with the county. I think they're still trying to acquire the property.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
What was the shopping center that was nearby the green. Is that the one?
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
This one I remember sending to Ruderman. Is that the same one?
- Jessi Hall
Person
County said they were going to have. They had federal money to purchase the land, but we just don't. We're just not aware of the details on that.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Yeah, but I remember when we had this conversation back then that we talked about that. Well, the one Bill that the Governor had vetoed which would have helped you so you could have did like coffee shop retail and then to pay for some operations, get somebody to do free WIFI.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
So I don't know if you know, different Administration, if that's something worth pursuing again for this one. Because it is. That area is next to a shopping center.
- Samantha DeCorte
Legislator
Yes, it is. It's. It's all close by. Yeah, I'll check. I'll. I'll work with Senator San Buenaventura on it and ask her if she's aware.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
You remember the Bill number and the year? No, just send it to us and I did. I wrote it for you guys, but I gotta go look it up.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Yeah, well, it would help them. And then if we did land acquisition, then they could do a PPP on it, have a library and then do some mixed use so that the mixed use pays for and they're all supportive of it, so it's not like they were against it.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
You know, then. Because some coffee shops, they give you free WIFi. Right. So let's say they had a coffee shop right. Next.
- Jessi Hall
Person
Yeah. I mean, when the transit hub project started, it. It seemed very. It was like a. A great Mary in Mary.
- Jessi Hall
Person
Right. And then. But it's just taken time for the county to kind of acquire the. Yeah. Because they. They went through the environmental assessment process already. We've had community meetings.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Oh, yeah. From the. From. I don't know. That was when I was, I think, CIP chair.
- Samantha DeCorte
Legislator
They were supportive. I mean, if it's been. Yeah. I was just gonna see it's change of Administration as well, too. So I think they're getting settled, but I'll. I'll work with Senator Joy. Okay, thank you, Senator.
- Kurt Fevella
Legislator
I just give a question. Who. Who negotiates on the security contracts? Who doesn't know who?
- Kurt Fevella
Legislator
Yeah. The only reason why is that again, you get the security companies out there charging the state 30 to $42 an hour. They paid a security guard minimum wage. And the part that I get upset is that they also charge state for vacation. Yeah. Holiday pay, sick leave. And none of the security guards get that.
- Kurt Fevella
Legislator
So to me, again, if you guys put in this. The bid for security guards, you got to actually put them inside there that they're actually giving them. Again, this is the same thing that happened at airport. So we need to watch the contract because they putting in $42 plus Frenches vacation and. And sick leave and medical.
- Kurt Fevella
Legislator
But none of the security guards ever get that because they hire them. Yeah. And then that's $42 an hour, and the guy only giving minimum wage, you know, and that's the problem we had at the airport. Yeah. You know, so can you guys please, you know, watch that?
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
Because we. We actually do monitor. Yeah. The. The. The. The list from the state, I mean, has two. Two vendors.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
Well, we did. Yeah. We had. Oh, that's why you had to change vendors. We're using the same vendors and the capital. Yeah.
- Jessi Hall
Person
I think it depends on the SPO office negotiating that part into the contract, if that's.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
We actually are experiencing better security. Much better than we had the last.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
One because people, people go with both security. They do part time at each one or something.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
The table. So library assistant three budget amount is 38,000. That's how much they get paid.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
Yeah. Full time. We have so much turnover in that, that position.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
So I think when we were reviewing. Them, sometimes we make notes. So I, I mean, I'll go back and check. Sometimes we're Reorgang and trying to make.
- Jessi Hall
Person
Yeah, it's not sometimes secret code. Sometimes it's just with staff or copy putting in updating figures.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Yeah. National treasure. Are these secret codes with the libraries?
- Michelle Kidani
Legislator
Question? Yeah, go ahead. Well, some of your vacancies have been vacant since 2013. 2016. Two of them.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
For some of the vacancies. We actually have been trying to fill them.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
Yes. There are some positions where we get list of names and we try over and over again where people don't or we have substitutes in those positions. And then depending on how many vacancies we have, we have to prioritize how we're hiring and how many vacancies and which vacancies we have.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
So if we have branch managers, they rise to the top in terms of making sure that we fill those positions. At the same time, we have the issue of the restrictions on our budget. And so we don't have the full allotment of our budget to pay for all of the positions because our budget, 80% is people.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
So we have to prioritize which are the positions that will. It's not that we don't need them, but how do we make sure we can keep our libraries open?
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Well, which ones are vacant? Which ones have no budget? They all have budget now. They all have the dollars there.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
Last year is the first year that you, you turned back, we had about 64 positions that didn't have budget for almost three years.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Okay, that's what I was looking at. I thought maybe that's what it meant that there were no budget at all. So you can't hire every single one of these individuals.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Oh, that's now because of the restrictions. But if you didn't have the restrictions, then you could.
- Jessi Hall
Person
When we start the fiscal year, we. We basically are. Our budget is based on personnel costs and current expenses. Those are the two main. The current expenses are all the utility, security guard, contract, all that stuff. And it's much smaller. It's only like 20% of our total budget.
- Jessi Hall
Person
So at the beginning of the year, when we have to identify where are we taking the 5% restriction, actually the 10% restriction, we have to identify where the 4 million is coming from. And so it has to come out of personnel. Otherwise we don't. We have to, you know, kind of worry about whether we can have enough.
- Jessi Hall
Person
We can keep the lights on, keep. Pay the water bills, pay for the security guards.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Going back to these. These vacant positions have been vacant since 2009. You only show one of them the vacant since 2017 that you intend to fill here by February 3rd of 2026 page. The first page of it towards the bottom. I think seven or eight from the bottom.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
We've already done the interviews and we've already offered for people to begin, so yes.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Okay, so I can expect that this is not going to be on the list next year. It would not be unless somebody leaves. Okay, well, I've, I've seen, I've gone over lists where you folks say fill date and then the next year is still vacant. The next year is still.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Not necessarily you guys, but the agencies do that. But then the rest of them, the 2009, it doesn't even have an expected fill date, which is. Yeah, I'm trying to. 2000. It's on the last page 13. But yeah, you have 2019-2016-2019-2019-2018-2019.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
Yeah, that position actually just moved. It was sitting in another. I think this might be a position that I have to go and double check because we have two sixes. One six. We are. We have moved to be a project librarian and we're working with D. Herd on the. The description of this position.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
And then there's helpful for you to let us know. That's why we asked for these charts because if you don't give it to us, then we're going to ask. Ask it.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
So your total amount of vacancies total up to what, $6.3 million should that be 6.3 but it's not 6.3 million.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Oh, your whole total 11 doesn't add up to that. Well, how much is your total vacancy in salaries?
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
Well I don't think it's 6. I mean half of them I know that about 30 positions can be again it depends on which position it is and.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
If we were to sweep all of these positions that I just went over since 2009 to now. I mean you've lived with it without all of these years so I guess you could go without it. Right.
- Jessi Hall
Person
That would end up with closure on a lot of our smaller libraries on the neighbor islands.
- Jessi Hall
Person
For all those years we haven't been operating with them. So actually. Well some in many cases we put in. We rotate staff, we put in subs.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
And this is as of November account. We can update here for what we have up to now because we have filled some of these positions.
- Kurt Fevella
Legislator
Just like bring this up because the problem that I guess table seven, page seven. Because giving the consistency of the 9.1 budget restrictions over the last three years fiscal years. We just was talking about you talking about that which other libraries has been seeing a significant reduction in operation hours for to public service.
- Kurt Fevella
Legislator
The reason why I asked that because now you just said if we sweep all the vacancies it's going to change the hours and operation for some libraries. Okay.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
So you already did that. So if we sweep the vacancies they're at 100%. They need whatever they got is what they're using. Right. If you sweep the vacancies. So if the Governor says 10% restriction now they have. They have the. They don't have the vacancies not to to cushion them anymore.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
So that it's a trickle down effect. It's not as direct. You're not. They're not explaining it as correctly as maybe they try not to throw anybody under the bus. Yeah.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Definitely. But it ends up resulting in that over time. If is if there's a depending on the percentage of the restriction.
- Kurt Fevella
Legislator
Because I just. For the last three years it's been going up on you guys. Restrictions.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Oh yeah. So this is like a shell game every year. That's. That's what it is. I mean you gotta.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
They all pad their budgets with some amount or they wish they at least have that amount because you're guessing at to what the percentage of the restriction might be that the Governor and the MBNF is going to send them.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
And then now they got to figure out, okay, of all my budget, how do I restrict 8 or 5 or 10% depending on what the Governor tells them.
- Kurt Fevella
Legislator
But that's not real restrictions for the. Last 10 years, which is the libraries. That was.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
So when we can't sell positions. So you'll, you'll see there's a lot of newer positions. We have smaller libraries in neighbor islands that do not have as many positions. And so we have to drop our services. No, but I mean we can't fill the position.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
But the question is not cutting all the vacancies. It's cutting the really old ones been vacant for you.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
Right. And I think we've done a really good job trying to get at those really old ones. And as I said. Let me. I'll follow up on. We have, we had a lot of.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Like you may have an updated table that does not include that one or I can. Or you want to make sure by the time you send over the updated table.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
Two sixes. We just reorganized and it takes a long time for us to reorganize. We've been looking at all of our positions. We had 64 that we couldn't touch for three years. We didn't have the funding for them. So we're trying to be very strategic with the vacancies that we do have.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
And we have gone back to creating island managers which will help provide better services on the islands. They provide an additional staff Member, but they also provide support directly to the island. And so we have actually moved positions around to better serve the needs of our libraries. So I am sure that 6 is one of them.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
And it was, it was out there for a while because we, we didn't use it. But now we do have a way that we want to use it. So we're not trying to leave some in the. The dust. There are some positions that again were not filled because we only have so much money.
- Kurt Fevella
Legislator
So we really. For the vacancies. Right. You know, I call Senator Dela Cruz always say so if you guys kind of feel some of the positions because like he's surprised and I surprise seeing that the position for Assistant 3 is 38,000 a year.
- Kurt Fevella
Legislator
So there's any way the vacancies or the money that you guys have in the areas that you guys haven't filled fall out to, to kind of entice the position so that you would be able to hire somebody on a higher pay scale to adjust that.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
I think it's actually a larger issue that we have to work with D. Herd on changing the classification, which is a whole group because they're doing different levels of work than they did when the original library assistants were created. Yeah. And that's a larger project because it'll need more money to actually provide the.
- Jessi Hall
Person
And a lot of times that's the problem. Right. We are able to find somebody, but then they stay only for like four to six months and once until they can find another higher paying job.
- Jessi Hall
Person
So that's why that there's like this constant churn on the, especially the LA positions, the library system positions, the ones that pay the lease, they have the, they're their entry level positions. Like in the fiscal office. I've. I've reviewed like 17 lists for the entry level audit Clerk position that we desperately need.
- Jessi Hall
Person
But I've been through 17 lists over the last 34 years. We, we've made many offers and either they've been hired by another Department, they decide to come and then they reject it. I mean, so it's.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
So then if you know that for 17 years, why are we doing the same thing over and over? Why aren't you repurposing these positions? I know it takes a long time, but 17 years, you could have done it.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
No, but you've this for years. Because I've been in this, these hearings for, for years.
- Jessi Hall
Person
That's a little scary. Scary. So more recently, specific to that position, we actually have two positions, same exact classification, same level and everything. That's why there's 17 list. And we're constantly trying to fill one of the two. We finally found a temporary employee that actually worked out really well.
- Jessi Hall
Person
So we spent the last year to downgrade the position so she could qualify. So it's a longer discussion about how this is an entry level clerical position. But the requirement is there's no degree requirement. Experience. Yeah.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Why don't you guys come up with a Bill or something so that you can have the Flexibility you need. And then she's willing to consider it in subject matter. I think that's kind of her. Her point is that they. She wants to help. But you guys know the. What you need to help yourselves. If not.
- Jessi Hall
Person
I guess we would. We've tried every which way through the T herd process. Let's try a legislative field.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
You know what we need in government? We need positions. That's called fixers.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Yes. Somebody was telling me their CEOs, CIOs, COOs and FIO. FIOs.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
How can we figure it out? I would love to talk more about. It because every year we say the same thing. No, no, no. But I need to talk about the proposal possibilities.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
No. So yeah, when you write the Bill, then you'll have lots of discussion. When you talk about when you have. When you hear the Bill come up.
- Michelle Kidani
Legislator
Have you guys seen a drop in the visits to the library because of lack of security? No, she said it's. No, it went up. By about 10%. People have come to the library. But yeah. So what I'm getting at is that maybe we can put more funding into the.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
No, but it won't matter because they still got to work with D Herd because the classification is what's difficult. That's why you need the legislative fixed.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Table 13. Overtime. My question is not so much on the overtime. My question is regarding the increase in salaries. Is this based on. On the contract that you're projecting? Because you know, you've got these base salaries for actual. And then you see a base salary for 2026 goes up. And then for 2027, base salaries are going up.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
It will be based on contract because everybody. Most positions are part of the union. A union. So.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
So I'm just asking. So that base salary is based on the. The projected. Yeah. Negotiated contracts.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
But the big. That's 200,000. But this would jump is 600,000.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Because that's a big percentage. Then from 2.2 to 2.8 just like.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
We have a new financial person. So we'll take this. This table back and we'll get.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Yeah, you guys should check these things before you give it to us because it raises all these questions. Okay, can we talk about travel? Table 23. First of all, I'm going to ask that you folks provide to us a total of how much travel that you've for the year that you folks spent. And what was the.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
What was your travel budget? Were you over, above, below? Having said that, what is Staff Day?
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
Every two years, we bring staff together on each of the islands for staff development. So the Friends of the Library actually pay for the day itself. They help us to bring in speakers and to have an event where we do staff development.
- Stacy Aldridge
Person
So we close the library for one day every two years and we bring everybody on Oahu together, everybody on Hawaii island together, everyone on Hawaii and every money on Maui.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Okay, so this cost that's listed total cost of trip, it's the airfare. So is that paid for by the.
- Jessi Hall
Person
So the airfare is paid for by. We've as. By the state. So Staff Day occurs. Well, the projected is. Occurs every two years. But the last staff day we had was pre Covid. So it was five years ago in 2019.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Hawaii staff day. That's the island of Hawaii, right? Right. Where's they fly to?
- Jessi Hall
Person
No, so state librarian, certain manager managers fly out to that island where that staff and all the. All the big island staff gather in one space.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Okay, where did they come from? 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13 Hawaii staff day people came from where? Okay, so. Did they all come from Oahu? Did they all come fl.
- Jessi Hall
Person
Yes, most of them do. It's their managers of the support offices, our IT section, our fiscal head of fiscal or head of hr. We all go. So the Executive team basically goes to whatever island is having that staff day.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
So the same group goes now because then you have the Maui Staff Day. Right. And then you have the Kauai Staff Day. Yes. And then I don't see Oahu Staff.
- Jessi Hall
Person
Is the cost of the actual training and staff date is covered by. It's covered by the Friends of the Library. So we try to do it every two years, but it's. Right. As I mentioned, the last one was pre Covid.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
So. So you don't have your total travel budget. No, we can provide it.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Okay, why don't we recess and move on to Executive office on early learning? So we'll recess for a couple minutes. Thank you, adjourned.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Okay, reconvening. So next we're going to hear from Executive Office of Early Learning. So, good morning.
- Yuko Cross
Person
Hi. Good morning. Chair Dela Cruz, Vice Chair Moriwaki, Chair Kim and Vice Chair Kidani and Members of both Committees. I'm Yuko Arikawa Cross, Director of the Executive Office on Early Learning.
- Yuko Cross
Person
So of course our vision is that every child in Hawaii has access to high quality early childhood development and early learning experiences which lay the foundation for lifelong well being.
- Yuko Cross
Person
So of course our two main functions coordinate and improve the early childhood system while also hosting the Head Start Collaboration Office in our office and working in partnership with the DOE to administer the EOEL Public Pre-K Program. I'm going to skip over the next slide so that I can come back and speak to table six.
- Yuko Cross
Person
I wanted to highlight that we just recently completed the Preschool Development Grant in partnership with Hawaii P20. And through this we updated our comprehensive birth to five needs assessment. We created a new state plan. We maximized parent and family engagement in the Birth to Five system. We supported our workforce program quality improvement and enhanced and expanded access.
- Yuko Cross
Person
And this photo is a picture of the brochure from our symposium which highlighted all the work that had been going on in the early learning field. And we are able to give you a copy if you're interested in.
- Yuko Cross
Person
Another part that I'd like to highlight that came out of the Preschool Development Grant is the new First Five Hawaii. This is a common eligibility portal for all residents of Hawaii where they can enter simple basic information about their family and they can be screened across 18 different programs to see what their families may be eligible for.
- Yuko Cross
Person
And these programs span early learning, health and safety, food and nutrition, special needs and early intervention and parenting, family support and also housing.
- Yuko Cross
Person
So we just released it in January and I pulled a traffic report and there were over 33,000 hits. As part of our Preschool Development Grant as well, we updated our Hawaii Early Childhood State Plan. We are hoping to formally release this within the next month and we will also share with you a copy of this.
- Yuko Cross
Person
In working with our preschool, the reauthorization of our new state plan, we did a lot of community engagement and visited each of these islands that are represented here and had 296 responses from people across all of our islands.
- Yuko Cross
Person
A couple of years ago when I attended the Hunt Institute, there was a session that the Children's Funding Project highlighted and this was to create a state fiscal map. So I attended an online session and the Early Childhood Action Strategy actually was also showed a similar interest. So we partnered together with a children's funding project.
- Yuko Cross
Person
This too was is looking to be released within the next year. This tracks public investments for children and young adults from 0 to 24 between the years of 2019 to 2023. So our work began in 2024. So the last comprehensive year that we had was 2023.
- Yuko Cross
Person
And we are looking to update it every, I think within like every two years roughly. It shows the funding landscape for state, federal and federal relief funds and it looks at how Hawaii is working towards our outcomes, how we Fund our services and how we support different age groups and populations.
- Yuko Cross
Person
So again, this is going to be formally released within the next month or so. I wanted to highlight that through the support of the Legislature, the Governor and the lieutenant governor's Ready Keiki initiative, the number of EOEL Public Pre-K classrooms have more than tripled since 2022. Our interest in our program remains strong.
- Yuko Cross
Person
The number of applications still continue to far exceed the number of seats statewide. So Currently we have 89 sites, 117 classrooms, 2,275 seats and as of January we had 4,979 applications with 3,490 of one of them being unique because there were 42 pairs of twins.
- Yuko Cross
Person
As we also expand our Public Pre K program, we are still committed to maintaining a high quality early learning environment for our students. We're happy to report that EOEL met 10 out of 10 benchmarks on the latest near public pre K report.
- Yuko Cross
Person
Five states met all 10 of the National Institute for Early Education Research Quality Standards which are Alabama, Hawaii, Michigan, Mississippi and Rhode Island. We continue to support our Early Childhood Educator Stipend program and so far we've had 162 recipients.
- Yuko Cross
Person
It could look as 163 because one person has gone through the program twice so far and we've had 61 completers who are now filtered into the early childhood system across many different programs.
- Yuko Cross
Person
One thing that's not shown on this slide is that through the Preschool Development Grant, the Executive Office on Early Learning also supported the National Administrator's Credential that is hosted by the National Early Childhood program accreditation or NECPA. And 48 community based providers were interested in this opportunity and took us up on this offer.
- Yuko Cross
Person
And it helps to develop Director skills in our community based program. So it's for directors, aspiring directors or people who are interested in what the role of a Director is. And so it helps them with marketing, legal and fiscal management, operations, educational programming, community relations.
- Yuko Cross
Person
And so we are really Excited to offer that to our community based programs. One thing that we're all tracking is the progress towards our Act 46 outcomes which state that 50% of the currently unserved children in Hawaii should have a seat by 2027 and 100% by 2032.
- Yuko Cross
Person
And so as we take a look at this chart here, the declining top line are birth rates in Hawaii according to Department of Health statistics. The very bottom line are the number of seats. And when you see the line drawn at 2027, this marks our first marker.
- Yuko Cross
Person
So this looks like we are on target to meeting that first mark in 2027. You can also see the low, the lowest 2027 target line and that's where we're at right now. Then we continue our trajectory out to 2032.
- Yuko Cross
Person
If we continue to see this 1.97 decrease in birth rate and also if the seats were to hold steady, there's just that minimal gap at the end. However, we also know that we are increasing additional seats to close that gap.
- Yuko Cross
Person
And we are also going to continue to need to watch the trajectory of births or for children population because if it stays steady, as you can see in that dotted top line, there would therefore be a 14% difference if the trajectory of the births stayed the same as it is at this moment and also if we did not increase seats.
- Yuko Cross
Person
But right now we are definitely on track. So looking towards our future. While we just closed our final preschool development grant, the Executive Office on Early Learning for the first time applied for a federal grant on our own. And there were 34 states that applied. Only 23 were awarded and we were one of them.
- Yuko Cross
Person
And so we are going to be focusing on this next year of systems building grants. Previously, PDGB5 grants were awarded in three year cycles, but now they're going to be awarded in one year cycles, which is also tied to our request, which I'm going to be speaking about shortly.
- Yuko Cross
Person
We are also continuing to focus on the next 25 classrooms that are going to be opened this upcoming school year. And so now I'll go back to. So when you look at table six. So this is based on what the Legislature appropriated last session. This is our base budget for fiscal year 27.
- Yuko Cross
Person
This includes positions and funding needed to continue our existing 117 classrooms and to open 25 new classrooms this upcoming school year. So for our supplemental budget request, we are requesting General Fund position counts only to support the growing workload and responsibilities of the office in coordinating the early learning system.
- Yuko Cross
Person
The program specialist positions were previously funded by the preschool Development grants. But now that they are being offered on one year cycles, it's no longer really possible to have positions for funded through the preschool development grant. But we also just created our new state plan. We also have a new preschool development grant for this school year.
- Yuko Cross
Person
And so we would like to continue to have these positions and put them into our fte. What's your total FTE. Including? Okay, so one moment, I have to. So we have. What is the big total? 200 group? 331. We're going to double check. Maybe. 331.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
So 331 positions. Yes, that includes the early learning teachers or that's just admin.
- Yuko Cross
Person
So these are classroom teacher positions, educational assistant positions and then EOEL office positions. Majority are in the schools. And so we are also looking to add an evaluation specialist to our office. So what we have learned is that we are continuing to do additional research on the early learning field.
- Yuko Cross
Person
And so we're looking for a person to provide leadership, planning, coordination and evaluation of the effectiveness of programs and assessing the extent to which the objectives of our early learning system are being realized at the state level.
- Yuko Cross
Person
And so along with our request, we are asking to transfer funds from other current expenses to personnel to cover the cost of these positions.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
You guys are asking for the four positions, but you got quite a bit of vacancies.
- Yuko Cross
Person
So these are three positions. So when we look at our vacancies. So we have. Okay, let me go here. 11. Yeah, sorry. Okay, sorry. So when you look at the vacancies that we have right now, so we filled the office assistant position and a secretary position.
- Yuko Cross
Person
And then one of the things to note is the date of vacancy. So when we were looking at the date. So there, there's definitely one, but there may be more than one. That is probably incorrect.
- Yuko Cross
Person
We think maybe the school repurposed the prior position number, the one that's from 2013, because we did not have that school open in 2013. It's a brand new school this year. So we're not sure about that one. But we have currently only 10 truly vacant EA positions at this time.
- Yuko Cross
Person
And then those 12 month state office teacher positions are actually in our office. So there's a process by which we have to go about creating the positions and then recruiting for them. And then within the Department of education system there opens a teacher transfer period.
- Yuko Cross
Person
And so there are some rules that we have to abide by during the teacher transfer period. And so we are looking to fill the remaining state office teacher positions in our office. But what that means right now is just that our team works harder to meet the needs of all of our 117 different classrooms at this time.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
When you say in your office teacher, what did you just say? Teacher.
- Yuko Cross
Person
So these are teachers that are held in our office versus place at school versus being hired by a principal at a school. And then where do they teach? So they are the coaches and the mentors that are assigned to each of our public. Okay. Okay.
- Yuko Cross
Person
They don't. In the classroom, they do not teach students. They are responsible for the adult learning.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Okay. And when you say 12 months, state they work 12 months out of the year. They do. Versus the teachers in the classroom are nine months.
- Yuko Cross
Person
Well, the Department of Education has 12 month and 10 month state office teacher positions, depending on what their roles and responsibilities are. So over the summers, our teachers still do work with onboarding new teachers who are coming into public pre K. They work on developing our workforce as well over the summers. So they are working 12 months.
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
Why do you have so many EA3 vacancies? What's the problem there? That you can't recoup or you don't. Where are they stationed? You know?
- Yuko Cross
Person
Yes, that's a really great question. So the first thing about educational assistance, number one, is that our EAs have what we call a select certification. So beyond meeting the Department of Education's requirements for typical educational assistance, ours also have to have some early learning coursework.
- Yuko Cross
Person
And so some of these have to do with the timing of being enrolled in coursework. So they have to enroll, then they have to submit their documentation to say that they're enrolled in order to even come onto the list.
- Yuko Cross
Person
And so trying to really open up those pathways for people to get that early childhood coursework and hours completed is what we're actually really focused on for the EAs.
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
You can't downgrade the positions, bring people in without the certificate, and then have them develop with the certificate and then upgrade them.
- Yuko Cross
Person
So that's a good question. So in our statute it says that they have to either have it or be enrolled. And so we will work with them until they fully satisfy the requirements. It's just that they have to enroll first. And so lots of times principals might find some people.
- Yuko Cross
Person
What we find is that an educational assistant is an entry level position. And so sometimes people are just curious about early learning and maybe are not really ready to commit yet. And so they're willing to substitute while they kind of figure out if this is what they want to do. But then we hold sessions for them.
- Yuko Cross
Person
Our workforce development specialists host online sessions to tell them about the requirements and that you don't need to pay for these certifications because we have a stipend program and we can help you, walk you through that. So I think that that helps. And we have converted a lot of substitutes or potential substitutes into permanent positions.
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
So how many schools do you have and. And are they all do? If you have these many vacancies, are they all stacked up to being able to serve the kids in this?
- Yuko Cross
Person
So every single one of our classrooms are open, Every single teacher position is filled. And so we only have 10 where there's not an educational assistant. So what we have provided the school are paraprofessional positions. So every school is open right now.
- Yuko Cross
Person
So the ones we have only 10 sites that do not have a person in the position for the education assistant. So they typically will enroll up to 10 children until they can get that fully staffed second person. We just don't want the inconsistency happening in the classroom.
- Yuko Cross
Person
So we'd rather staff at a ratio of 1 to 10, which is what it is according to our near benchmarks, and then provide that second additional person for the classroom. But we really want a solid two people for the full day at least.
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
Are you projecting, as you're looking at, you're saying you're going to get more schools. What is the projection of that in terms of staffing?
- Yuko Cross
Person
So all the principals that have indicated interest have said that they have interested people who are willing to move into the position. What we found is that sometimes principals are not familiar with select certifications for the educational assistant position.
- Yuko Cross
Person
So that can be a little tricky as well as the timing of these types of positions in the system. And so I'll give one example. So prior to the school year, we have to make sure the positions are created and that they're posted. Sometimes we have had a posting missed.
- Yuko Cross
Person
So once you miss a posting, you have to wait for the next posting, which could be a month out, and then you have to wait for them to vet all the people and then you have to go through the interview process. So if you miss a posting period, it can push it out at least a few months.
- Yuko Cross
Person
And so Wiki Wiki. I'm not familiar with Wiki Wiki. I'm not sure what that is because it's very unique.
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
Yeah, Wiki Wiki hire. Because all your positions are the same and they're unique to your program.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
I can, I can look into that. It's an expedited hiring process.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Okay, I can look into that. Thank you. Travel. Yes. Do you have a total of your travel?
- Yuko Cross
Person
Yes, I do. Our Travel total Is195,638. And that's just for the calendar year up to November. 638. A lot of that is with our early learning state office teachers doing travel to support each of our 117 classrooms.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Okay. Because if you look on the last page, table 13, the second to the bottom, it says educational specialist, 12 months date 102,000. Which. Right there. So you're saying the rest only total up to 90 something thousand. And then why isn't that one break broken down? Why is it a lump sum?
- Yuko Cross
Person
Okay, I'm sorry, I was trying to find you. So on the very bottom, the 102,000. So you're asking why is it coming up to 195?
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Well, I'm just saying, first of all, you, you give us a lump sum, it's not broken out. Then your total is 195. But that takes up, you know, more than half. So I'm not sure. I didn't add up all your things that.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Because I found that the numbers that have been given, when I go and put the numbers in, it doesn't add up, but I've added up yours. So it just, you know, it's a red flag for me at this point because right below it it says 31,000. So just those two lines alone, it comes up to 133,000.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
And so. And you're saying your total, all the rest of page is 195 altogether.
- Yuko Cross
Person
Yeah, but she, what she's saying is the 1, the 102 and the 31 come out to 133. So is it possible that the rest of everything else totals just 60? The answer is yes.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
No, I don't think so. Because you've got 2,000 on one. The Family Engagement Conference, you got another 3,000 on the Bellevue, Washington, you got another 2,000 on the Pace, another 2,500 was 2009, another 3,000 above that. I don't know.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
I mean, not a real math whiz, but it doesn't seem like, you know, and you go on the first page, you've got a number in the threes, the twos. So anyway, can you reconcile that and get back to us? And then what's your budget? What's your travel budget. So our budget for.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
The school year, let's see, At least you have your total. Nobody else had their totals, albeit my people.
- Yuko Cross
Person
For fiscal year 25, we had 393,007 and fiscal year 26568 and 7. And the reason that we have these dollar amounts is when we open up new EOEL Public Pre-K, there's a lot of work and coordination that goes into place.
- Yuko Cross
Person
So we, we have to estimate how many will be hosted on neighbor islands and that includes the travel, especially with the onboarding process for new schools.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Thank you. So if you'll get back to us regarding that number, that'll. Sure. Because your, your budget alone is, is double, almost double of what you're telling me your total was. So. But it's good if you're under. Yes, thank you.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Any other questions? Okay, we're going to recess for school facilities authority.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Convening. So next we're going to hear from School Facilities Authority. Good morning. Still.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
Good morning. Chair Dela Cruz, Chair Kim, Vice Chair Morawaki, Vice Chair Kidani and Members of the Committee. I'm Ricky Fujitani. I work for the Hawaii School Facilities Authority. The authority is tasked with redefining what's possible for government facilities in Hawaii.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
We follow a philosophy of build less, solve more in design and construction, which basically emphasizes three things. The first being efficiency, which means build faster into a budget. The second thing is deliver on a minimal viable solution that there's no more fancy schmancy anymore. It's got to be back to basics.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
And then the third thing is address core problems, which means it's sort of like the collarary to the 80/20 rule. Focus on the 20% that give you the 80% outcomes. So we just want to do is take that philosophy and apply it to the initiatives that have been assigned to us by the Legislature.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
So it's just one chart. The first one that we want to apply it to is pre-k. And so if you apply that philosophy to pre-k, the first question is why build? Which means what are the core problems you want to address with pre-k? And it pretty much has to do with the Ready Keiki Initiative.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
Right. Hawaii finally walking the talk with regard to universal pre-k. We've been talking about it for 30 years now. We're going to really address it. The second philosophy is what to build, and that's the minimal viable solution. And the minimal viable solution is renovations, taking existing infrastructure, renovate it. That's the best use of the money.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
The next best use is to take a design of a project that's already in flight and insert pre-k classrooms like we did at the University of Hawaii or at the libraries. And then the third is the most expensive is build new hubs to address additional capacity. But again, you want to focus on what to build.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
Then the final application is how to build. You want to build it differently. And that's what we're trying to do. You do it by standardization. Just Renovations follows a specific design guidance standard. It uses the same flooring, it uses the same materials. So your contractors get very, very good at it. You don't do it with low bid.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
You take the effort to do a pre qualified contractor list. So you reward good contractors and they get really, really good and efficient at doing these projects. And finally you look at multiple options for construction. And this is more applicable to hubs because of supply chain issues.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
You don't want to be welded to one type of building supply chain. You want to be able to do it with mass timber, CMU block, or even prefabricated flat packs. So that same what did you guys get built this past year? This year another 25 classroom renovations.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Yeah. And okay, so that you use the monies were all CIP designated? Yes, it was.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
Yeah. So the money that we have at our disposal now is all cipher General funds.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
What's the total amount and how much have you spent on the 25?
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
No, total funds that you received. How much did the 25 cost? And then what's left?
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
Okay, so the total allotments received is 116 million. But this is over the course of the existence of all the program of the pre-k program.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
This is since the initiation in fiscal year 23 through fiscal year 26.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
So what's been. Okay, let's backtrack. 320 million in appropriations. 118 was lapsed or restricted by the Governor because the bulk of it was cash and it had to be used for the Maui fires. What's allotted is 116. We've encumbered 86 million of it and to date spent 40 million of it.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
We have left a balance of 29 million in what was allotted by the Governor. But there still is an online amount of $85 million, the bulk of it being CIP and then the next fiscal year's money, CIP also.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Okay, so the plan is to just continue to do more classrooms with those dollars.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
The bulk of that kind of money is going to be for preschool hubs, because a preschool hub is anticipated being about 4,000 to 6,000 square feet. You're looking at 8 to 12 million per hub. So the challenge for us in pre-k is.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
Is basically a preschool. Yeah, a functional preschool not affiliated with a campus, often on. By. By itself, on its own, either in dhl, dh, HL Lab, University of Wayne Land.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
And that's already planned for. Or you still have to develop a plan of where and how big and how many.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
Right now there's about 14 in design EAs have been submitted. That money has to be encumbered by in six months.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
This is part of the. So the money you have left is going to cover the 14 depending on.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
What the bids come out to. We think it'll be more like eight or nine only.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
So who, who, who makes these decisions that we're going to go to these hubs.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
Right. So the Ready Keiki Initiative has a overall target of hitting this capacity we've looked at. Again the best way is through renovations, but there's only so many. The next option is to drop in with shovel ready designs already in flight. So to hit that number, your only way is to build Hubs Additional Preschools.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Okay, so do we know or are we factoring in the cost to operate. These hubs distance wise now?
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
So right now all of our money is cip. So as these cubs come along we will need funds for operation and maintenance.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
But my question is in the plan, I'm not sure who, how the decisions are being made, but the decisions are being made that how we're going to operate and maintain the facilities and the future needs to for it to be the roofs, whatever we're building.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
So we, we embark on these programs with only regard to the CIP and not regard to the operational costs because what is that going to add to the overall education budget is already 30% of, of our, of our state budget. Right. Goes to education.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
And so what, what's the kind of as we grow and build, what's the impact as far as you know, ongoing operational into perpetuity.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
But you don't do any rnm, right? You don't do maintain, you just build it and then you can it over.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
Well right. In the current things we've done, we build and add to existing departments that. Yeah. So you do maintenance. Yeah. But in this next tranche of hubs to get the number of seats that we need, we will have to take on an operational deferred maintenance portion.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
Yes, but we don't have any General Fund budget for that yet. And that will be a request two years from now when these hubs get built.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
I think before you, I think that going back to Senator Kim's point.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
If this is new because if I think there was a, an explanation to us that the CIP would require you to have operational dollars for the future that may have been budgeted differently.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
But I don't know how many of us thought that you're now going to be growing sfa. Having a RNM branch like that's, that's new to me again.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
And this is, this is not necessarily your folks's fault or Juliana at this point, but we have a tendency to embark on programs and it sounds good, and all of a sudden it grows exponentially.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
And then all of a sudden now we're not just doing classrooms at the schools, but now we're going hubs, which requires the land and all the other things that go with it. Then what is the overall cost? Where are our priorities?
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Yes, we want to make sure that every, you know, preschool child has this opportunities, but again, what is the overall cost at the end of the day and can we sustain that? And I don't think I've seen that plan anywhere.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
So before we keep building more bricks and mortar, it's like, you know, how are we going to maintain this into the future? I mean, we've taken on, you know, nurses, psychologists, physical therapists, everything in the schools. We've become the, you know, health centers in the schools. And now we're building even more of these little hubs.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
And, and all of that going to apply probably to, to these children as well. So I don't know what.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
But why is the RNM, you guys, versus DAGs? I just don't understand why we're duplicating government and growing government. For operational purposes.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
Absolutely. It, it, it could still be dags. Right? Now it depends where the hub gets built. The ones that at the University of Hawaii. The University of Hawaii will do the, do the maintenance like the one in.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
And who decided the hubs? Because I thought the whole point of the, of the classrooms were to be close to either working areas or where people lived.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
So because now it sounds like when you're doing hubs, people got to drive there.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
Yeah. But the hubs, the decision to place the hubs are based upon the need for.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Maybe in matter, you need to, you need to probably present.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
A plan. Because I, I don't know where any of these hubs are, how big, how many. Yeah. So then even the long term R and M. Right.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Because. Because then we're obligated without having had the opportunity to talk about this obligation. Because once it's built, then what? We're going to let them, we're going to just let them sit there? We can't operate it.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
Right. So depending on each hub, like at the astronomy center, it's going to be run by the University of Hawaii, the hub for Department of Hawaiian Homelands. I mean, there's a Hawaiian Homelands project. They're depending on each hubs. There's a few hubs on Department of Education land. Okay.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
So maybe, maybe they have. You have to do a PowerPoint and presentation and subject matters to show which hubs are going to be in a partnership as far as maintenance. Sure. And land which hubs are going to be brand new. That's going to require long term additional staffing and money.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
But it's difficult enough for DAGS and DOE to hire RNM people.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
So why are we going to end up adding even more departments or more capacity that's going to be competing with other departments trying to hire the same people. And now we got to build out infrastructure organization wise. That's kind of a concern. Yes.
- Lynn DeCoite
Legislator
So, so who decides the priority of where the hub should go? You know, maybe Big island versus Honolulu and like.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
Yeah. So our, our governance structure is with a Pre-K Steering Committee. The Steering Committee is based on the Ready Keiki Initiative. The initiative people at the table are the Department of Education Executive office on Early Learning Charter Commission and the Lieutenant Governor's office.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
And so based on that governance, we've identified renovations, shovel ready projects where you put additional classrooms and hubs to meet the need of the Ready Keiki Initiative.
- Lynn DeCoite
Legislator
So when we had the last info briefing with DOE because we were tasked with no longer prioritizing cips and that you folks would do it or DOE would do it internally. So my question still remains, how do you go about prioritizing which island or which district gets that hub first? Because you could literally just go like this.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
Yeah, that's not the process we followed. We based it on a demand for preschool seats based upon data and we've identified all the sites. Then we look at sites whether it be county land, DOE land, DHL land, university land that can sustain the height.
- Lynn DeCoite
Legislator
Can we give a copy of how you've already. The board has already.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
I think the subject matter is going to have a hearing though.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
Yeah, absolutely. The Pre-K Steering Committee process is monthly, it's well documented, it's driven by data and we can provide all that fine and well.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
But the actual budget decisions been made by. By this body. Yes, this Committee. And if you folks, and I'm not again when I say you folks, I mean whoever is making this decision, these hubs haven't factored in what is the overall cost and sustainability of this program.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Is the intent to create these early learning hubs and Preschool to be like public schools. So now instead of just K through 12, we're going to have completely from or 2 years old on that. Every, every child is entitled to having a seat because what is the impact of the budget going to be? We can't sustain that.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
Yeah, it again, it depends on where the hub's located. If it's on, if it's on DOE property, then it's under the governance of the OEL by statute.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
I don't care where it's at. It's going to cost somebody money. And guess who they're going to come ask the money from?
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Where's the school going to ask the money from? Us. Where is DHHL gonna ask the money from? Us? Uh, is going to ask us.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
Right. And in the case of other locations, it's outsourced to a private provider. So there's a variety of students pay for that contract.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Again, I'm not, you know, getting passionate about this because we keep adding on and growing government to the point where I don't know that we're going to be able to sustain. I mean it's great to have these programs, but once you, once you do these programs, people feel entitled. You cannot cut it. And how do we.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Where do I cut, where am I going to cut to pay for these programs? Already DOE takes up one third of the budget and another third of the budget is, is fixed costs. We just have a small sliver of the pie. And again, that's not your decision.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Whoever made this decisions to do this again, I don't know if I was sleeping on the job and I didn't know this was happening, but some. Something's wrong with this will add.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
Right. It's 100 million in CIP lapsing. The overall appropriation is 100 million in CFP lapsing in six months. The remaining amount that has to yet be uncovered is 60 million. And.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Filling it with conferences and training and all of that and then contracts and then software. I mean you're talking about. We're talking about a lot of funding.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
But don't you think the authority should also be looking at generating revenue to pay for some of these ongoing operations? Because you have the ability to do mixed use.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
The, in the case of pre-k, the revenue generation is really letting it to a provider who then can sustain.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Talking about the new, the new facilities that are not on any state land. If we're going to be buying land why don't we end up doing some mixed use to help pay for the operations of of the classrooms or the oper of maintenance or some Administration.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
We absolutely do. Yeah. That's why I'm. You shouldn't be asking for General money when you have the ability to generate your own. Other agencies don't have that ability. But you do.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
Yes, Senator is right. The best use would be a mixed use for like housing with pre-k and all that options. Right. That would be the ideal case. Right.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
That should be the way you do it. Because to grow the government, to grow the General Fund ask is is difficult.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
Well, in this immediate tranche of money which was last fiscal year which had a two year lapse, our best option again were three things. Renovations, shovel ready projects where you drop in.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Yeah, but you know, on discard you have nothing about revenue generation.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
Well our only option for revenue generation at at this moment in time is in workforce housing and we only have one project.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
But you can come up with your own ideas and come to us and say look, this is going to help generate revenue.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
Right. Right now we have the ability to do one project with the financing and it's Milani High School. That is a great option for revenue generation. But that one is the first example. Yeah, it's precarious. But housing is your best option. Commercial. Right. For rentals? No, I mean you could do commercial.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
Yeah, that one I think is even harder to get funding for because housing is so. No, you could do mixed use.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
So they could contract that out as long as it generates enough revenue to pay for the contract and then whatever else. Because you figure KS they don't raise taxes, they only use their land assets to generate revenue and they pay for all of their education. Right.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
That's kind of the model that I thought you guys were going to take up where you're going to generate revenue so that we can generate more revenue for education without growing the General.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
That would be ideal. At this moment we have site control on no properties of land. The only property of land that we.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
So come up with a strategic plan that shows us that's where we're going and maybe we can help. But you have your. You have to generate revenue.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
Absolutely. You know we've identified. Oh we have one project in play. We've identified 25 sites that are suitable for real estate development for things like housing and mixed use. But that requires money to do those RFPs. It requires site control for the plan.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
That shows that and that there's going to be a payback. So I think there's some effort to, to assist so that long term you can generate revenue.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
Well, right now we have funding for one P3, which is the one in Mililani. Right. It's $5 million. We think the funds that we have. Will be needed for all of it.
- Troy Hashimoto
Legislator
I think what she's asking is didn't you give 10 million to uh, to. To do a pre, pre-k site? Right.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
Yeah, but, but that's with CIP money specifically. That's lapsing in a certain period of time in order to make a deadline and to hit the date where we.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Can send the money to your age. You know they haven't moved to school yet, right? You know they haven't opened it in the new. Right. Is that the one that. No. Yeah, yeah. You guys giving the money but you know it's not open, right?
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
Yeah. The facility is built, right? Yeah, I, I don't know if it's. It's the. Their intention was to give it to operate for students by this fall. The dorm is open. I don't know if the pre-k they haven't.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Is ready yet. They haven't moved it. They can't move it because they don't have enough land for open play areas.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
No. They can meet that line requirement. Not necessarily in the back where the facility is. You can meet the DHS requirements with another parcel.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
But I want to make sure that when we give money that we're paying attention to what's going on. Because if we're giving them money and they can't move it and they can't put it in then. Right? Sure. So who's being held accountable?
- Kurt Fevella
Legislator
You know what is is. So you talk about workforce housing. Okay. You guys had land that Gentry was going to give right next to Olimo elementary that never go through. You guys waited, waiting, waiting.
- Kurt Fevella
Legislator
So you decide to something else with the land shovel ready elementary school that was going to provide pre-k that was overlooked and didn't go through. You're talking about University of Hawaii and these hubs. We as a body here had recommended that you guys use them in the best area where pre-k going go.
- Kurt Fevella
Legislator
University of Hawaii Manoa do not have children. There are Asian communities. So why would you guys give them $10 million to a pre-k that the need is in the urban area, the areas that have growth, like my area Mililani, those areas, you know, I am pro city.
- Kurt Fevella
Legislator
You guys put in hubs where you say you guys are coming together, putting hubs, but who's putting one hop at the university? We can barely fill the campus with regular adults and you're gonna put preschool kids there, but they're going to kiss the rail. You see what I'm saying? Why? How you gonna get 10 million?
- Kurt Fevella
Legislator
Because you guys gotta spend the CIP money. But how you guys shouldn't spend up. Let's build an elementary school with the pre-k. My community right now have room for pre-k. If we build facilities which you guys are not 6th grade wing 11 intermediate for the last 10 years, zero.
- Kurt Fevella
Legislator
So we cannot eliminate elementaries 6th grade to make room for pre-k because you guys only have a small area for pre-k. So you guys not looking at the existing stuff, you're having meetings for what? I have no idea.
- Kurt Fevella
Legislator
Those hubs, I don't agree with those hubs the way you guys are strategically trying to put them where there's no growth with a need for elementary school. Can we get planning in my district that have Kamaina kids? They're not these kids gonna go to the hub, the university, what elementary school they're gonna go for.
- Kurt Fevella
Legislator
The elementary schools are overcrowded too. So now when elite pre-k , they can't go to elementary. They gotta go to another one in Kahuku. There's no more room over there.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
Well, I understand your frustration. We actually had pre designs in about 15 DOE campuses for hubs. Unfortunately those have been decided not to progress. And that's why the initiative had to pivot to other areas that.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Okay, so this is probably going to be taken up in subject matter because it seems like it's going to be lengthy. Sure. Over the overall master plan for pre-k classrooms. But you know, your, your, your powers are pretty. V ery broad. Yes. So you understood you can enter into partnerships including PPPs to acquire, construct, rehab.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
I mean it just goes on. You could purchase new property, you can enter in agreements with developers. So I'm not sure if your strategic plan allows you to use all your your powers, but your powers do not justify you asking for General Fund in growing your operations because you can generate your own revenue.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Okay. And you are doing the Mililani workforce housing. You're doing the 25 classrooms and you're doing the hubs.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
The initial language of the bill? Yes, but that was never acted upon.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
Session law, the power already session law indicates that, that the agencies should transfer the functions for CIP along with the employees. Except.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
No. The reason is, is that nobody amended the DOE statutes on facilities so that that still remains the same intact.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Of their statutes and your statutes so that it's clean. So they actually have the right to still hold all of that because not their statues were changed.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
Yeah, I, I don't know if it specifically says that in their statutes, but the bulk of that responsibility was moved over in Act 51 in 2000. Yeah, I get it.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Creating your statute. But nobody amended their statute to require the change.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
But if the response is transfer, then you would think that the positions that went along with that responsibility should have been transferred as well. So all I'm saying is that, you know, I understand 12 FTEs, four vacancies, that there's not a lot of people to deal with a lot of the stuff that's going on.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
So how do we, I'm trying to say how do we fix this? Where's the fix going to come? Are we going to give everything back to doe? Are we going to give everything to Sfa? I mean, what is going to be the fix? Because we've already gone down the road with DOE doing it. They can't do it.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Even with the facilities and responsibilities they have now. They're not doing it. They're not building the number of schools they're supposed to be building. They're not maintaining what they're supposed to be maintaining. So I, I'm, you know, it's a dilemma for us to have to fix this at this point.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
Right. The, the session laws indicated that process that was in 2020. Nothing was done since then. Yeah. That hasn't, that hasn't been act upon.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
Last time I was here, I, we had an office space, class A office space in Honolulu that we canceled and instead we took up a one room classroom at a vacant classroom at an elementary school. So we use that as our office space.
- Wendy Hensel
Person
Sure. The $100 million that's about to lapse in six months. Why is it lapsing?
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
No, no, no. The cash was all Swept and the CIP, I think. Yeah, this is the 100 million CIP that was appropriated in fiscal year 25. Yeah. 35 million has already been allotted. There's a remaining allotment of 65 million and the allotment request is in.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
But typically the BNF doesn't release it unless you have specific projects that are ready to be encumbered with the Fund. So that's in process. The request the request is with has been. The Ottman request has been submitted. We have identified those specific places where the money will be encumbered.
- Wendy Hensel
Person
So how much of it is potentially going to be encumbered before the six months?
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
It's highly likely all of it. Because we have designs for 12 hubs, we think we can only enough CIP for maybe eight, depending on what the bids come in.
- Wendy Hensel
Person
Yeah. So being that it's clear your direction is to focus your attention on these hubs. How are we addressing the deferred maintenance in the school? Because the hubs is one element of it.
- Wendy Hensel
Person
But I want to make sure that we're not neglecting our schools because I can bring you down the west side and point out exactly where we need priority needs addressed.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
Yeah. The color of the money, unfortunately is this appropriation is for pre-k expansion.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
To expand pre-k has. Was not done in relationship to what's happening at K through 12 and where the money is going to come from. And that's my thing. Yes.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Well, and it's all separate. Right. Earlier we heard from early learning and then now it's sfa and so it's, it's spread all over the place and with all multi. It's like a multi headed snake. Right.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
It's pre-k expansion. So we can't even use it to improve existing pre-k. Right. It's to expand the. Yeah, I get it.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
But I think it's important for you to develop a strategic plan based on your powers so that you can generate revenue.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
But at the same time we need to ask EOL because again, they're acting as a silo and yeah, they're pushing their thing. But again it's not in relationship to the overall requirements.
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
100 million. You have that all identified as to which pre, pre-k classrooms you're going to be working on. Is it all itemized that we can see what you absolute.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
Right. And the hubs are Itemized too because that has to go all of the.
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
But of the 100,000,000. What, what are you looking at actually executing on? So you have a plan of those and that's all pre-k expansion. It's not the hub. So she's going to have a briefing on it.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
What's. We just don't have that list. But then you can. And that all has to be submitted as part of the allotment request. Always. BNF has no faith. Yes.
- Kurt Fevella
Legislator
So the question is he was talking about land. Right. Okay. So again in every beach hole piling they have the property for bill, the new elementary school. So why don't you breed a, build a pre-k right. In phases and then you build up the elementary school.
- Kurt Fevella
Legislator
But you're talking about other areas where you go put the hub, where you're prioritizing the hub when the hub you really need right now is another beach. Kids are traveling from one part of the community to go to the other side of the community. But I don't see anybody focusing in the most fastest growing community, period.
- Kurt Fevella
Legislator
But the elementary school, I know it's not your kuliana but it's been ready for over five years.
- Kurt Fevella
Legislator
I understand that but you guys are DOE and you guys are within the agency. You cannot tell doea. Like how you telling Hawaiian homes at a university, hey, we're gonna build hub on that property. Can we build a preschool prek Hub or started there on that property since the DOE owns it. You don't need buy them.
- Kurt Fevella
Legislator
You only make one deal with Hawaiian Homes. You only give $10 million to.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
You know what? He's gonna, he's gonna do a she's the chair is going to end up doing his excuse.
- Kurt Fevella
Legislator
Take the land belongs to DOE. We don't have to buy it. We gave $10 million to University of Hawaii. He could have put the money in 2004.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
No, no, but they had the building. They were building the building.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Yeah, yeah. So. So what? It's a little different in how they interact with DOE versus uh, because with DOE they're actually going through the state doing classrooms now.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
But didn't, didn't, uh, already have this preschool on the land where the.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
They expanded the capacity of the building design to accommodate the pre-k. So the difference in cost ended up being 10 million.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Is that what it was? That's what we paid for. Okay, but if we didn't pay for it, then what would they have done? They wouldn't have done it.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
To lower the rents for all of the. All of the residents in the building. $60 million over 10 years. Yeah. Right.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Yeah. Okay. Why don't. So you have no, you have no additions, and hopefully you. You never will because you can generate your own revenue and then you don't have any. You do have some CIP requests.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
No, that's, uh, You have the new. New Central Maui middle.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Wait, this is request. Only the. Okay, yours. You put the whole biennium in. That's why. Okay, so you're just looking at lump sum CIP for pre-k 2 times 1B, 1C.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
Right. One is special funds. The special funds. Right. Because what happens is, as we don't need the money for. As the renovations come under budget, the money gets drawn back into the special.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
Which is originally cash. Okay. Then that special Fund money was always cash.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Then it became cip, which was lapses. Yeah. Okay, so to save the cash and not lapse it, you put it in a special Fund.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
Actually. Yeah. It's an accumulation of canceled peels too. Right.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Yeah. So instead of lapsing it, you're putting it all in the special Fund because it. Yeah, that's what you do.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Okay. And then the cipher request is the 27. Right. Lump sum. Yeah, yeah.
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
You have. You have projects within those lump sums. That you can give us a lump sum cip.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
Oh yeah. I mean, the. Right. The. The need. If the objective is to provide universal pre-k seats is great.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
So this, this, this is all mixed up with what you're talking about is this is the difference that you need.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
Right. So this is going to be the next tranche of hubs. Renovations.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
So his overall plan with several hubs and then overall classroom, certain individual classrooms. He's taking some money. It's not enough. So he's asking for the difference. Yes.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Oh, yeah, absolutely. He has his plan. He's going to present to. Yes. He can send to us and then they can do a hearing. Yeah. And then for all of these. Yeah. That way at that point you can determine if. Yeah, yeah. The different. Yeah.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Are you putting in these. These hubs into your workforce housing like the one at Mililani? Is there a. Is there a component in there for a preschool?
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
No, that one has no preschool. Component. It has no. That one has no preschool.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Why not? Wouldn't that be a place that you could generate funds? Right.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
Because it could be. Operationally, it'd be incredibly challenging given it's on a high school campus.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Oh, no, that's not true. They have a. They already have some pre-k facility at the other corner across the elementary school. On Milani High School campus.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Yeah. I don't know. Okay, but wasn't in the original RFP when the RFP was issued.
- Kurt Fevella
Legislator
The question I have you. So you guys are in charge of building new schools. See, you guys have. Over here for the new.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
No, no, no, no. That's all we put in. The budget was Maui sent. Maui? Yeah.
- Kurt Fevella
Legislator
The confusing part is when I asked DOE what happened to that school. Again, I don't want to keep talking about my district because it's a need. What happened to the funding?
- Donna Kim
Legislator
So all the schools are done by different agencies. Done by doe, not by you guys at this point?
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
No, it depends on how we Fund it. So if we put in the cip, that. And direct it to them, they do it. If we put in CIP and they direct it to doe, then they do it. It's who the Legislature puts it in designates to do the project. Thank you.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
The way the law is written, it says whoever the legis the Legislature assigns.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Yeah, you gotta, you gota. That's where you clean it up to you guys. Yeah, that's where there's no sense talking to them about projects that we've assigned to another agency.
- Kurt Fevella
Legislator
Okay. I mean, big mistake because I thought when we created this agency that they was in charge of building new schools. No, I didn't.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Yeah, they have that ability. But like I said, we never cleaned up the existing statutes for facilities and, and maintenance in DoD. So both agencies can do it.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
So it's just what, what delineates it is who ends up gets the, who gets the funding. That's all. That's. And that's determined by us.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
Right. So at this moment in time, not this session, there are 17 schools in design. One is with us and 16 are with the Department of Education.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Meaning the ledge, you know, and some of it is not necessarily so.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
And of the 17 schools besides the one. So the 16 schools, how many of those schools were built or is being built?
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
Only one is being built, and that's Kalani Hakoi, and it's partially built.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Do you know how long that. That assignment of 16 schools that we wanted, 16 schools to be built.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
The oldest is Kalaniakoi, that started in 2006. And all these other schools have been initiated since then in various times. You know, design money was given at various times in different budgets and in the accumulated time at 17. Right.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
So the, the biggest, the other difference between us designating who gets the cfp, they have PPP powers. DOE does not. So they can do mixed use. They can enter onto all these contracts. They can do. They can generate revenue. DOE doesn't have the same ability shifting it all over. Well, but then who does?
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
I thought when, when we first discussed this, it was going to be new schools and it's supposed to be 21st century schools then, but DOE did the R M, but somehow this got evolved and I'm not sure where it's at myself. So one more thing comes down to who, who gets the cip. That's what it comes down.
- Ricky Fujitani
Person
Right. And one more thing needs to be considered for any kind of development project is site control. And that's the land issue. So that has to be also.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
No, but you can acquire land, so that's not an issue. So if you wanted to, you could just say, I need land. And then this is what I'm going to develop and how much I can generate. And this is what I'm going to do, right? So that's, you know. Stop crying over spilt milk. That's.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Nobody's going to give you land. Go figure it out and go come up with your strategic plan and ask for the acquisition.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Not hard, because you guys have powers. As long as you can make the business case. Okay? Any other questions? Okay, we're going to recess to 2 o'. Clock. This is probably our longest recess, so we, we have till 2 o'. Clock.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Okay, Reconvening the Joint Committee on Laser Means and Education. And so now we'll be hearing from the Department of Education who will present their supplemental budget request. Good afternoon.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Good afternoon. Chair Dela Cruz. Vice Chair Moriwaki. Chair Makato Kim. Vice Chair Kidani. Members of the Ways and Means Education Committee, thank you for the opportunity to be here today. Superintendent of the Department, Hawaii State Department of Education.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
I'm joined by our deputy superintendents and senior leadership who are available to respond to questions as you review the budget tables. We appreciate the committee's guidance to keep opening remarks brief, so I'll just highlight a few points before we turn to the supplemental operating budget request. First, student outcomes are moving in the right direction.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Hawaii has made long term academic gains and our schools are nearing recovery from pandemic learning loss. With our public school students recovering faster than the national average. On key measures. That progress reflects sustained effort by our educators and school leaders supported by Department level focus, resources and accountability.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
This work occurs across a large statewide system with diverse student needs which shapes both how resources are used and where pressures exist. Second, the supplemental request reflects restraint at 25.8 million. It is significantly smaller than than prior supplemental requests and was developed with full awareness of the fiscal austerity and uncertainty facing the state.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
We look first at to internal realignment and reallocation before bringing forward any requests. These are detailed in Table 4 in the testimony materials. Third, we have taken concrete steps to improve efficiency and workforce stability with legislative support.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Last year we established the Office of Campus Operations and Support which became effective last summer and brings together key school facing functions to strengthen coordination and accountability in how we support our campuses. We've also expanded use of student internships within Hawaii DOE offices which helps bring internal capacity while developing student talent familiar with public sector operations.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
In addition, we repriced hard to recruit positions such as educational assistance and engineers and architects and continue to focus resources on school level needs. With that context, we've prepared to walk through the supplemental operating budget table and answer any questions that the Committee may have. Thank you.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Okay, so why don't we go to Table 6. And then we can. I guess you're starting off with priority two.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Okay, so priority two is a revolving Fund ceiling increase amount of $7 million for professional services. This is to support our CIP and deferred maintenance programs by hiring skilled architects and engineers.
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
Well, I have a question on that. So you have architects and engineers too, right? In the Department. So how. What do these, these professional service contracts give you that you don't have in your Department. This is $7 million.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
They supplement the work of those positions with the owner.
- Jesse Suki
Person
Hi, Senator Morocci. Jesse Suki, Deputy Superintendent of Operations. So those, the increase in the ceiling there and for those contracts there to supplement the work that our existing architects and engineers do. So these contracts are for. Focused on deferred maintenance and helping manage those workloads.
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
So what do you. How many architects and how many engineers do you have on staff?
- Jesse Suki
Person
You know, the. I'm going to call up a public works administrator. She has those numbers at hand. J.D. Orasaki.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Afternoon, Senator. We, for the facilities development branch, we have roughly 62 positions. That makes up architects, engineers, administrative staff, construction inspectors. I can definitely give you the full breakout of those positions.
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
Yes. Could you. And how does it relate, how do you determine on the professional services contracts what your needs are then? If you have architects and engineers on staff, what are these contracts for?
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
So this request for professional services, we don't do any in house design. Right. So we manage professional service contracts of licensed architect companies, engineering companies, and they do the work for us for the designs. And so this group focuses specifically on the deferred maintenance projects so that we can get the projects out quicker.
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
So they do the design and then you come back in for construction separately?
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
We come in back as part of our deferred maintenance budget.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Yeah, that they're currently working on. I can get you that number. But, you know, again, our deferred maintenance backlog is, you know, over 3,600 projects.
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
Do we give you funding for deferred maintenance as well? So you have a listing of those projects that you can also submit? That is correct. Okay, thank you. Thank you.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
So approximately how many. How many architects and how many engineers on the staffing?
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Yeah, I would say maybe 20 in various. In the various sections.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Yeah, yeah. So why do we need that many if you're going to hire out all the services? Because they're not actually drawing the plan. So why do we need licensed architects and engineers? All they're doing is being project managers. Right.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
But they are still ensuring that the codes are being met. They're still ensuring the due diligence.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
You can still do that. You don't necessarily have to have. But I'm just saying we, we give you guys all these positions and yet. And you go to contracts which we'll get to hundreds of these types of hundreds. But a lot of these types of contracts. You first contract everything out. Consultant this, consultant that.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
We talked about that. Having people that actually have project management background. Because some of these engineers and architects, they don't know how to manage projects.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
We've had boondoggle kinds of projects at the airports where the project manager is a engineer and they let all this stuff go through and then the projects stop because they didn't do a good job and nothing happens to them. They still have their job. Even though we're suing and getting sued because they. They didn't oversee the payments.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
We paid them all off. When we went in, we saw all the discrepancies. They signed up on it. These engineers, architects that our project managers signed up on it. So again, it seems as though we hire these people, but. And it's not just you guys across the board. We're hiring consultants to do the work.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Yeah, they're supposed to be managing that is what you're saying. But then you even hire a management. Somebody to manage because it was like.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
It's like how Stadium's operating now. It's not really the staff. So Dags hired a consulting architecture firm to manage the contract. The other contracts. So it's not even a direct oversight of the contracts. We keep adding layers of consultants, but I wasn't sure, you know, how you guys are operating.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
How many of your own staff do direct management of contractors? And how many of your. How many contractors are managing other contractors?
- Donna Kim
Legislator
So can you guys get that list to us of your 20 or how. How many positions you have in your. Are they actually directed directly overseeing these projects or they're overseeing the overseer, the consultant.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Yeah. No, but it's too hard. Like, if one staff has like 20 schools, they're mad at that point. They're managing a contractor to manage other contractors. That's kind of.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Well, they. They basically have like 20 contracts, but we're managing each one individually.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
That do the management that does the management, but they still report right to.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
So your project manager manages the consultant manager who then manages the project, Correct?
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Yeah, so that, so that delineation maybe if you guys can show us that. Sure.
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
We can get that to you. Yes. And. And when you have another contractor managing the contract, some criteria for what, you know, is that complex project or whatever. But you know something for sure. Some. Yeah. Which ones do you have? Consultant. Consultants.
- Troy Hashimoto
Legislator
So I guess the question is, so what is the 7 million for? Is it for. For the contractor that's overseeing the contractor or is it actually for actual work that's being completed?
- Troy Hashimoto
Legislator
Correct me if I'm right, you still have Bowers and Quota as your, your primary contractor to overseeing all the other.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Contractors for deferred maintenance, right? That's correct.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
So this will go and support that as well as in BK contract or the BK? Well, that type of facility, asset management for the deferred maintenance, plus other architect or engineering companies for the deferred maintenance.
- Lynn DeCoite
Legislator
But can you give us some breakdown of the 7 mil of where the thing exactly went, please? Yes. Thank you.
- Troy Hashimoto
Legislator
So I guess the thing that what we really need to do still down is I think in the interim the BK concept was fine, but I think at some point we need to move away from that and we need to start bringing that in house.
- Troy Hashimoto
Legislator
And I don't know over the years that we've seen it, I don't know if we've seen any of that movement happening where you're building the capacity versus relying just on a contractor to oversee a contractor. Right. And so I don't know, you know, maybe you can tell us now what, what that movement has been.
- Troy Hashimoto
Legislator
And I know you're relatively new to the, to the job too, but, but I think that's the ultimate goal, right, Is we have our own people so we don't have to have contractor, missing contractor. But maybe that's something we should really think about.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
And not on the information, but can you guys give us a proposal on how you're going to bring that in line so that we don't have that middle management. You either have the position and you manage it directly or, or you get rid of the position and you hire a contractor that's going to manage it.
- Jesse Suki
Person
Yeah. On that point one of the strategic objectives that OFO is handling is looking at how contractors are hired and being more efficient about it. So that is something I think we're. Working on in that area.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
So. Meaning like the contractor who does the work or the contractor that does the management of the other contracts.
- Jesse Suki
Person
Just sort of all of it. Like how are we deploying contractors more efficiently? Because it does help with capacity. Right.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
But, but, yeah, but going back to, I mean, points being made, seems like the state should be building the capacity instead of like outsourcing the capacity at a higher cost.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
You know, part of it is it seems like with the stadium, I'm just going to use that because I don't want to pick on anybody in front of us.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
But the, it seemed like the, you know, the perception was the contractor managing the contract also tried to make sure that there was a need for them so that the state would have to be dependent on them for a long time and so that you cannot control costs that way.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
So that's, I think part of the concern is if it's in house project management, then that's a permanent employee. We're not trying to figure out how to manage things so that you're needed longer so that you have a state contract even longer. Yeah.
- Kurt Fevella
Legislator
And then it's like having a conversation with the contractor and the consultant and not really having a person working for the state involved in a dialogue. And then bye bye. And we're talking about the stadium again. Yeah. Nobody from the doe, but in particular that's what they did.
- Kurt Fevella
Legislator
The consultant and the developer is making these deals and the person that's from the state is on a task because the consultant is bypassing the, excuse me, the developers bypassing the state worker to. She said she put the consultant on the project because again, the manager is not managing the project. So they're answering to the consultant.
- Kurt Fevella
Legislator
And I, and I brought this up before that I don't want that be happening even with the DOE or anything like that, that the consultant should not be talking to the, to the developer, period. But it seems like that's been happening a while since I've been here in other areas. Like Senator Kim said about the airport. Right.
- Kurt Fevella
Legislator
Consultants are in the airport, they consulting on the project with the developer. And then the misconnect was they put in one electrical Rollup Gate. Right. Find out that they never put in the electrical condoms. But again, the state worker.
- Kurt Fevella
Legislator
State worker wasn't involved. So that's what we try for say is that if, if we're going to have state worker managing 20 projects, they got to really Manage them. So that's a sense that they tell the consultant, you cannot talk to the developer or a person.
- Kurt Fevella
Legislator
That's the problem we have that they're making these deals and I say they illegally do it, but they make it these deals.
- Kurt Fevella
Legislator
So how are we going to bring that in so that the consultants, again and I stress this a lot, have the consultants not to go to the developer and make sure that they're working with the managers that managing the property. That's the problem we've been having in.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
The past, more transparency on cost overruns and changes to the contract. If we know that we're negotiating it. Because when another contractor is negotiating, we're not sure if their interest, you know where their interests are because they're just a contractor. Senator?
- Lorraine Inouye
Legislator
Yes. Thank you. Is this discussion, is it related to emergency reports that we have in a particular school building and.
- Lorraine Inouye
Legislator
Yes. Does that include looking at emergencies that we identify in a school? And I think the administrator know that I've made a complaint about the building that was going to collapse. Very concerning. And you went to Waike High School Intermediate. I brought it up at DAGS yesterday because we have not gotten a report.
- Lorraine Inouye
Legislator
They said they will check with you guys and until today, and this is like several years now that the building is ready to collapse. But I understand that that the report went in but we don't get notified about what's happening. So Dag said they'll report it to DOE.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
S. I can touch bases with you after specifically with that because I, I have a response for that. I'll touch my seat. Thank you.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Okay. Well, back to table six. I. I just want to point out table four is a listing of 41 line items. $33 million. We can see that. 25.8 million. This, that was the board request.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Table six, these are just the additions. They total $9.1 million. Seven. 7.5 million is revolving Fund. 1.6 million is. Yeah. But General funds.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
So this next we're not going over the wish list. We're going over the real list.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
So that was for context to say we just went over $7 million of the $9.1 million on the table 6. The next line item is the one line item in which General Fund Dollars are did make it from that first list on Table 4 into the Governor's request. And this is for regional kitchen. 26 positions, $1.6 million.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Yeah. The only question I had on that is if you look at your vacancies, you guys have a lot of vacancies in cafeteria helper and school food services manager too. Like when I tried to add them all up, they're so small, I don't know if I had the right number.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
It's almost about 30 when you combine the two. So I'm not sure if you cannot use that for trade offs and transfers versus just adding the 26, and then if you ended up needing it later, you know, it can come back in. But it's just. Those vacancies are just sitting there.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
And you'll see on Table 5, which are the reductions that made it into the governor's budget. We do have a negative line. 11 positions being being requested and adopted by the Governor. So we do look at those opportunities to repurpose. Okay. But I think that's something that over time we would be looking at, especially with.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
But what about these now, though? All of these food services.
- Jesse Suki
Person
Yeah, those. Those positions. Many of them have Ta positions. So there's people in them. And so there are positions that we. Need and we use. Yeah.
- Jesse Suki
Person
Yes, yeah. And. And it's. It's part of, you know, the reorganization that's happening. But then that means their position is vacant.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Then you're holding their position to Ta in another position.
- Jesse Suki
Person
Oh, yeah, yeah. But Sean from Okos can get more specific about that. Sean's team does the regional kitchen.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
But still there's some vacancies if you. I mean, it's just a shell game at that point, but.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Yeah. So the vacancies. Good afternoon. For the cath helpers, there's about 10 vacant right now. So those are all in recruitment. So those jobs are. Those duties are being covered by other cafeteria staff, the school food service manager, the caf managers. There's about 34 vacant right now. So of those 34, there are people in those positions.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
32 RTA's. Why is it on the vacancy table? Because there's no permanent person. They're all by Ta. So there's. Their Ta is in there because.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
No, that's what he's saying. So they're teeing from another cafeteria position, which means their current. Their current position is vacant while they're teeing into this position.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Yeah, yeah. So some are doing their. Their duty and the caf manager position with the ordering and doing the cooking and everything. So they're Ta because they don't fit the one of the MQs that they need six years of.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
But they, but they're good enough to Ta. You better get on it, man.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
So we're working with otm. Yeah, yeah. They're already in the class so we're trying to revise it so that hopefully they can apply for the position. But.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Yeah, but with regional kitchens, shouldn't that free up some of the people long.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Term it will impact cafeteria staff. Initially we need the 26 positions to open the regional kitchen. I think the part that people understand is the regional kitchen positions are very different from school cafeteria.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Should make it a lot easier and simpler for the CAFE existing cafeteria workers. Yeah. So they might not, you might not need as many. But you know the way government goes, once we give you the positions, we never get it back.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
So we're working on the long term plan right now on how we're going to. Initially, initially we're going to add the 20. We'd like to add the 26 positions. But as the regional kitchen produces food for the cafeterias, the cafeteria staff duties will change because the cooking will be done at the regional kitchen.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
So we're working that out on what that's going to look like in the long term. So we're going to be looking at attrition to adjust what it's going to look like in the caf. So the plan is to level out those positions. It won't be just to permanently add and not to reduce.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
As you Regional kitchen being a very new concept for us. We need these positions to ensure that we have.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Plan. We need to see the plan and we need to know that you're going to uphold the plan as we move along and it's not going to take 1020 years.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
We also have Emily Stanner who is our school food new school food service administrator. She comes with a background in regional kitchen development and running them both from Austin and Boston.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Okay. We don't need a whole background on. We've been there. Sorry.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
So the vacancies that we have on this on the list are in schools that are not in the LMW area and they do need their, their kitchen managers and then eventually their cooks and bakers as those, those folks matriculate. So we can't.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
She wants to make sure that there is going to be a follow up that you're going to the attrition component and the school there.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
There is a follow up and A nutrition component. We have a timing issue where we do need to bring the staff on ahead of the regional kitchen opening so that we can train them and get.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Is it a five year plan to end up hiring these now and then shrinking? Yes, it is later.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
It is actually exactly a five year plan because we have a four year rollout for the kitchen.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Yes, because she's going to be here in five years and she's going to add. Okay, where are we? Okay, okay, okay. Next one.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
I just was. Yeah, I was increased for teacher housing revolving Fund. A half a million dollars following funds, not General funds, just to increase the ceiling to support the revolving Fund which was used to repair aging teacher cottages.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
How many cottages are there statewide? Did you know that? Yeah, I didn't know that. Did you.
- Lynn DeCoite
Legislator
You can ask how many functional cottages get. And how many still burnt? Never.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Oh, okay. So if you get the insurance, then you're rebuilding it.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Yeah. Is this a constant fixing? Because there, there were really kind of in bad shape for years, so we're trying to upgrade them so that it's more livable.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
You know, Interesting. It depends. Can be from one to maybe about four or five people in a cottage.
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
When you say cottage, is it. It's a. It's a house. It's. It's a house. It's.
- Lorraine Inouye
Legislator
It's the ones that the plantations built before my time. Just the mountain view car, you know, buildings.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
No, fixing it for use because we have these teachers that are coming in. They want to rent it.
- Lynn DeCoite
Legislator
At four cottages or four people? No, no, but the cottage itself, there were two or four, but I think two of the cottages burnt. Yeah, yeah, some. Yeah. So when is that expected to. Because I think we're waiting on permits.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Okay. So that person is going to be out of a house for a while.
- Lynn DeCoite
Legislator
Couple months. Was on the county permit chat, too. Yes. Thank you. Sorry.
- Troy Hashimoto
Legislator
I think. I think Assistant we. What we really need to figure out is what is our strategy with the teacher housing. Right. Of the maintenance and what the program looks like. Right, because you just opened a whole bunch in West Maui and over teacher.
- Troy Hashimoto
Legislator
No, but if we are in this position with having to now infuse with this much money for our. Our other cottages. Right. To me, it has to be a programmatic review of what is our strategy moving forward. So we're not in this position where we've then got to infuse a whole bunch of cash all at once. Right.
- Troy Hashimoto
Legislator
It should be a plan. Plan type of thing. Like I think, uh, even has a hard time with this. So I, I don't know. You know, you have to put some people in figuring this out. Housing. Housing maintenance is not an easy thing. Right. So I don't know. So what is, what is the strategy?
- Troy Hashimoto
Legislator
Because we don't want these West Maui ones to come all junk. Right. Either. We want to make it look good for a while.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
That's correct. I think the immediate strategy, Senator, is to fix the existing ones that is in really disrepair and just.
- Troy Hashimoto
Legislator
No, no. Yeah. That's the strategy, though. It's part of it is what, you know, on a monthly basis, what are they paying to keep the maintenance going? What is the maintenance schedule? You know, like. Because I think if you don't maintain those Westmore ones, it's going to go downhill pretty quick. That's true, yes.
- Lorraine Inouye
Legislator
You know, just to add, you did have a plan years ago. And so Senator Kidani had the bills that we transferred.
- Lorraine Inouye
Legislator
You remember, you folks came to us to transfer properties that had buildings on it that was under City and County of Honolulu, and we did the land exchange and it became now your property with all the TMKs. And that had to do with some of the buildings that's already.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
But the housing is not on Oahu. This is only Neighbor island, except Coors.
- Lorraine Inouye
Legislator
But they were all included in the TMKS that we did statewide. But you already had a plan that you were going to do, do. Right.
- Jesse Suki
Person
So that, that is, that is separate, but going back to the cottages. So they're like 54 units and the 511. Yeah, it's 54 units. Yeah.
- Lorraine Inouye
Legislator
But that's all part of the DOE's management of your. Your program to create the.
- Jesse Suki
Person
So the 500 ceiling is to manage the units, but the. You're talking about the Lahaina workforce. I'm talking. Chat to help recruit teachers and mean, you know.
- Troy Hashimoto
Legislator
Yeah, but just maintaining like if, if you all of a sudden you're going to come in because. Oh yeah, we should fix these. It's. That's not what it's about. Right. It's like a regular RM that you got to do.
- Jesse Suki
Person
Yeah. So. So for these, you know, we already have them in managing them for the line of workforce housing, it's a little different because they have.
- Troy Hashimoto
Legislator
It's all, it's all in the same. If you don't have a strategy of how you're going to manage housing, I'm very concerned.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Athletics. The original request had dollars associated just one fte. And this request reported here in governor's budget to support gender equity sports across. All high and middle schools. Without these positions, without this position, the. Department will be at higher risk of. Lawsuits and they fail to provide athletic opportunities for students.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Yeah, I know, but you have been, you've been functioning and you talk about, you know, more possible lawsuits. What? We don't have possible lawsuits already now.
- Sean Bacon
Person
So. Sean Bacon from Office of Talent Management. So really this position is really helping to assess and ensuring equitable access for all of our students in athletics. We recently have had a lawsuit at one of our larger high schools.
- Sean Bacon
Person
This person is actually working closely to ensure we're in compliance with the lawsuit that will be being monitored for the next seven years. She's also working on going out and ensuring there's doing training and also doing assessments of all of our facilities to also ensure.
- Sean Bacon
Person
She helped recently initiate the girls flag football that just recently was initiated to ensure additional equity with our students in.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
This. The current position is su. Created. That is per. That's why. So they're trying to Take the permanent and turn it into a. They're trying a temporary and turn into a permanent.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Okay, what about our ag? Can our AG not tell you guys what the, what the potential of. Of lawsuits might be based on our programs?
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Check him. The. This, this. The person in this position does work very closely with the Attorney General's office. The person also has a wealth of experience in athletics and works closely with the different leagues, does professional development and training with all of the. The public school leagues.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Not perhaps not to the degree that we would have liked to. And so this position and this individual then brings her wealth of experience and planning. It's. It's a real necessary position.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Understand? Most of the positions are necessary. You know, in austere times, we have to really look at what we're asking for.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
But they didn't include a dollar amount because you're already paying for the position. Right. Because it was soup created, you found the money to pay for it, Right.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Yeah, but that's what's interesting, how you're able to find my. You're able to get these temporary positions. You're able to pay them without us coming in, and you're able to do that. But then you come and you ask for new positions and you, you cannot find the money to pay for those.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
No, it's just. So, just to be clear, there's really almost three types of positions, right? There's special project positions, temporary positions, and permanent positions. So temporary and permanent are usually created by us, and it's in the budget. But special project positions can only be created by the superintendent, the university President, and the Governor.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
So in this case, whenever the soup has a quick need, he can create a superintendent created position. And so that's what they're trying to do. They're trying, not necessarily trying to create a temporary or permanent position, but change it from soup created to permanent.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
And so. But he has the money. But then they come in because these are not positions that we gave you to begin with. Right. You felt the need, you found the money, but now we're kind of forced to give you the money to.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
The money that you're already spending as ESP K share. There was a, there was a Title 9 lawsuit that the Department was dealing with. And so this individual actually helped to further connect the school and bridge the gap between the Title 9 consultant that we have in helping us.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
That I believe, as far as I know, to that magnitude, that is the first one that we've had.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
That there's a statewide impact to. For Title ix. And so Title nine being very important for us, you know, we want to be sure that we were addressing the gender equity issues. And so one of the.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
But what this person has to do is when they go to, like, a high school, and let's say they have a guy, a men's locker room, but they don't have the women's locker room, now they got to figure out, okay, how do we. How do we make it compliant with Title 9?
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
So it may not be directly a women's locker room, but there could be alternative ways to deal with the requirement.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Looking at the components of what the. What we've. We're required to implement in other areas related to Title ix, this individual does that. And looking at expanding sports and working together with the different leagues, specifically the sports to impact that impact title. Our Title nine issues. Okay, so more. More for. For example, girls play football. Yeah.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Was really important for us. So we. There's. There's federal requirements that we need to meet related to the number of males and females in a school, connected to the enrollment ratios. All of those things play different factors in us being sure that we're compliant with Title IX or we're moving toward compliance.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
She does not. She does not act as legal counsel. She works together with the Attorney General's office.
- Samantha DeCorte
Legislator
Okay, so what is her primary role? Because you're telling us that she has sports background. So is she at. Is she an athletic advisor? What. Exactly. I'm trying to find out what is it that she does? So.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
So no, she makes sure you're in compliance with Title 9. That's the bottom line.
- Samantha DeCorte
Legislator
Okay, but isn't that what the AG's office is for, to make sure that you guys are compliant?
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
No. So this person actually has to go in and look at the gyms and look at the parks and look. And say, okay, you know what? This is what you got to do.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
So you can comply and actually do professional development with that with the athletic directors to Be sure that the ads.
- Samantha DeCorte
Legislator
Yeah, but isn't what the deputy directors are for what the casses are for? The people that are boots on the ground, everybody plays a part. You have the principals at the school saying hey, you know what? We're not compliant. Then that travels up to the cast and that travels up to the deputy superintendent.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Senator. Thank you. There are many areas that principals and CA are responsible for. So this individual serves as a subject matter expert, whereas principals deal with the whole realm, you know, especially for federal areas, for all areas. But for title nine, this individual serves as the subject matter expert to.
- Samantha DeCorte
Legislator
Yeah, but how is she going to know what's happening in every school and what school is not compliant?
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
And that's how she works together with the athletic directors from all of the schools.
- Samantha DeCorte
Legislator
Why don't you just have the athletic directors report to you guys and, and the different leagues?
- Donna Kim
Legislator
But, but, and, but my thing is when you had other lawsuits, maybe not to this magnitude, but you had other lawsuits, right?
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Title nine, I can check into that center. I'm not, I'm not familiar with any come to mind right now. Really specific to title nine.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
I'm sure you did see because, because I'm very much for title nine. I think it's very important. But all these years you've done it, why you wait until we go on magnitude lawsuit? If this was so important, then you should have had this person there so it would avoid us having this lawsuit.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Right, but you've been operating all this time and then it just seems like only now you bright light went out. Oh, we need this, we need this person, this, this expert person and one person. So I don't know if they don't even come back and say you need one more and one more.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
But that's the concern I have. The lack of, of doing this in the beginning or understanding the magnitude of the problem and then you let it linger on and then we get lawsuits. And then now after a large lawsuit, now you bring them on after the fact.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
But your principal training, you know, your academy, you don't have a whole component on title nine.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
We do center. I mean there are many areas in principal training. Federal compliance is, is one of them. For, for the federal areas, they are very, there's a lot. And so the subject matter experts for the different areas are really important to help support in the entire system.
- Kurt Fevella
Legislator
So I, I, I get what you guys are saying with the subject matter, but what I guess without understanding is okay, so I will give you an example. Since Campbell, okay, so the girls only can get 12 pairs because that's all probably true for the team. So the boys cannot get 15 pairs because it's not gender equity.
- Kurt Fevella
Legislator
So again, we're having this subject expert who's giving the advice to the ads, and the ads are afraid because, hey, we cannot get 15 boys because we want to get 12 girls. Do you see what I'm saying? So now a boys football team get 80. How much do girls get? 30.
- Kurt Fevella
Legislator
So we're gonna cut all those guys on the football team. But. But that's what I'm saying. But they're doing this for other sports in the school. Basketball. I asked that question. Volleyball asked that question. Right. So again, if the girls don't have it, the boys cannot have it.
- Kurt Fevella
Legislator
And that's the same like with the donations and stuff like that. That's again, again comes to the AD and the principal. What my colleagues is seeing. I understand you, you guys are thinking this position is important because of.
- Kurt Fevella
Legislator
But again, it's also causing other problems within the program when you guys say that, Oh, the football team get this much buses or cheating, let's get this much. I mean, it's, it's. Again, it's a routine thing because of course you guys got sued or whatever it is.
- Kurt Fevella
Legislator
But again, you guys would fix the problem at Campbell when you guys would do the combine the boys and the girls, lock the boys locker room into a boys and girls locker room to a unisex locker room to, to address the matter.
- Kurt Fevella
Legislator
But I, I'm not seeing the fact that this one person is gonna, is gonna be a fix all for all the schools without having the input of the Administration and the ad. And again, like how my colleague saying here they can do that right now because again, AD is also professional sports.
- Kurt Fevella
Legislator
Because most of all police sports been in sports. So they have that background too. So you're talking about other areas in the school that Gender equity. Every single person that's there. It's a new thing for everybody.
- Sean Bacon
Person
So who does the civil rights compliance specialist report to this position currently reports to the Director of the Civil Rights Compliance Branch.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Yeah, I'm just trying to figure out between Heidi, Jesse and Tammy.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Because I thought Tammy has Strategy, innovation and performance, Talent Management, Infotech Services and Fiscal Services.
- Sean Bacon
Person
Correct. So it's under. Then it's under Deputy and then under myself in Office of Talent Management. And then in the Office of Talent Management, there's the Civil Rights Compliance Branch.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
The position for the middle school leadership. Support program to re engage with students high school success.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
So we've not been preparing them for high school success and we need a position special position now for high school success.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Senate Chair, if I may. So this position and I'll let Deputy Armstrong also add this position in. I started the position here as in my current role. It was really important that we focus on building out middle level education. And as a transition point between elementary and high school.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
What was really important was that there there be a position to help build leadership. We have that at the high school. At the middle level it was non existent. So we do have a one body in this position. And what she does is she. She.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
One of the things is that she hosts a middle level student leadership conference every year. This and I just. We were talking a week ago and so for this upcoming conference we have 750 individuals attending. 600 middle level students are attending the conference. And the.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
The way why it's leadership and why it's so important is is that there are breakout sessions that the students go to. But each of the breakout sessions are student run.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
So the students from each of the schools they plan something that's important to them as middle level students and then they host other middle level students to come and learn from each other. You know, if. If you're free I can send you the. The information. It's. It's a very powerful event for middle level students.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
They come over, they're really excited. They. So we focus on leadership. We also focus on social emotional learning and development, character development. We are. The theme has been lead like Duke after Duke Kahanamoku and we also show the movie Waterman.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
And so what we want our students to understand like the legendary Duka Hanamoku leadership is really important and what he did in his life. What can middle level students then questioning.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
The program and the validity. Okay. Sure. There is. It is very very good. Okay, well questioning is. And how often. How long have you been doing this pro this. This conference?
- Donna Kim
Legislator
So who manages the person in the. Person who's in the current position. This tenth position person who has been.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Well it's actually more than a conference. She also oversees the connection for our middle middle level works with our leadership institute and the middle Level education.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
I understand you, you, you're going to be able to justify every single position you ask for. But when I look at your, your, your how heavy your orchard and the many people that you have here and under them, it just amazes that you continually adding positions and it's very top heavy.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
So I mean these positions are very nice to have and good to have and I'm. You're going to have good explanations and good reasons why. But again, I'm going to go back to, you know, we've been operating. What is it outcomes we're going to get that's different at this point because you can make an.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
You're going to be able to make a justification for every single position that you're going to be asking for. Right. And yet we got to pay for it. Now if you're going to continue to pay for it on the budget, that's.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Fine and well, but the first position that going back to the civil rights. What's the salary on that one? That position?
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
I'm not sure off hands do we have that? If we don't, we can.
- Wendy Hensel
Person
Where, where are you getting these starting salary numbers from? I'm just curious because we have principals that are 247 on the job, constantly working with our students and with staff and with faculty and with parents and with community that even getting paid nearly as much as they are getting paid.
- Wendy Hensel
Person
And you're telling us that you are intending on which maybe they are already in that position, a leadership specialist to conduct a conference that therefore is broken up by students and student led to watch a movie motivated by a local character.
- Wendy Hensel
Person
So this is just wrong on all kinds of levels when you're trying to justify a position that in my opinion leads a conference, facilitates a conference, but is being led by the students. Why not take that concept, embrace it into the doe, create your own conference and do it yourselves.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Person and yeah, but I think the best way I can describe. But you couldn't do this without the first thing. It would be very difficult to do because. Because of the complexity of everything. And I think that's why I really, you know, if Members would like to attend, I think it's really being there and seeing what.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
But all of the work that's involved in getting point that could be the big part.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
No, I get that part. My thing is, you know, when you look at the number of vacancies we could just take from vacancies to and trade off versus trying to keep adding.
- Lynn DeCoite
Legislator
Curious that you know even while you have that there how you go about. Because, because I know it's not all the middle school students. So you're getting them flown in to Oahu and which schools are being invited? I mean if it's Neighbor Island, I'm sure that you guys providing a travel budget too.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Yes, Senator, all, all of our schools are invited. I believe that this coming conference, all except right now three schools are not planning to attend. And so we're, we're checking on those schools but every other middle school in the state are invited.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
But I think it's important, I think we can get that to you center. I think it's really important that our neighbor island students have that same opportunity to get together with everyone. So it is actually it's a statewide conference.
- Heidi Armstrong
Person
And I just want to add one more data point that the middle schools themselves and the principals have expressed great support for this position. In 22:23 so the first year middle school principals reported that they felt 18% felt that they were very supported. The middle school level was very supported.
- Heidi Armstrong
Person
In 2425 that 18% increased to 72% through the principal survey. And then in 25-26 that original 18% of principals expressing satisfaction in middle level support increased to 84%. So the schools are appreciating this position.
- Heidi Armstrong
Person
And this person goes to the aunt, she's on Oahu, she goes to the neighbor island, pulls the middle level student leaders together and they're trained in school leadership and they develop camaraderie among each other. They go back to their schools and implement the leadership activities that they've.
- Lynn DeCoite
Legislator
Was this a one day event or was it overnight event? It's ongoing and because I'm just curious. To know is if this is an overnight event then you guys, who's housing them? Is it your guys budget or is it.
- Lynn DeCoite
Legislator
No, the conference is a one day. One day. So they come in and they go back. Correct.
- Lynn DeCoite
Legislator
I thinking about it I wanted to go and go see how they were doing. I was told we weren't allowed to come in and, and visit to see.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
No you, you're welcome to come to any, any DOE event. Please join us.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
I, I, I will reach out to you, Senator, to be sure that you get invitation. Okay, and the next two, then the deputy superintendents.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
So, so just that middle school, it, it was been in existence since Esser started and it's, it's a repeat from last biennium request. So initially you paid it paid from it started? Yes, sir. Foster.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
And, and that was part of what the presentation that was provided to the Committee was about was to see the trajectory of upward achievement results over the last 20 years. Yeah, but I think historically we're trying to sustain.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Yeah, but historically I think that's unmistal. Not just me, but I think Members of this Committee have also, also said that when you have federal funds or grant money and you create positions but you cannot sustain them, that that may not be the best choice.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Yeah, because then, now you're creating these positions and not just you with federal funds. Now federal funds are shrinking or the grant lab ended and then now we got to depend on the General Fund budget to subsidize and literally and across the state it comes out to hundreds.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
So the, the next line item is the last one. It's for requesting two positions for deputy superintendents to support leadership roles. And this is in the areas of strategy and Administration and operations. Without these positions, we're going to have critical improvements delayed, lacking Executive capacity to address systemic challenges.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Okay, I'm sorry, what was it before we had one deputy? Right? Before.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Yeah. And so all of a sudden now if you don't get these positions, you're going to have all these bad things happen.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
I think Senator, overtime or the last several years, the deputy positions have been instrumental in helping us to move the Department forward in different areas and continuously to improve in the areas that we're struggling in. And definitely we do have areas we still need to improve in, but I think we've made gains in those areas.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
The deputy superintendents have been really important. And you're right, we did start with one that was pretty much in academics, but now with the three that we have, we are really able to address different issues and different challenges throughout the Department and our large organization.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
And with every position comes a private secretary, comes a coordinated support Director. Right. I mean, you get, it's not just this one, these two positions. Yes, because there's more positions that have to then, I mean, it's just that the upper management is getting very Heavy. And there's a lot of needs about.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
And there's a lot of vacancies on the bottom level and there's a lot of complaints. There's a lot of complaints about the CAS and so forth and how that's being run. And my understanding now that it completely comes under academics and it doesn't come directly on.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
I mean they report to you, but certainly there's that concern that you continue to build up the top levels and very top heavy. And how much does these, these deputies make?
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
We can get that number, I don't know off hand center, but we can, we can get that to you.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
They right under. I'm sure it's around. They're getting paid there. It's, it's about. Yeah, what, what you guys are getting paid deputies? What are you getting paid?
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
So I, I think I, I don't know if I want to get the deputies on, on their, their salary out.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
But this is a public piece for it. We're asking about the budget, the public funds.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Yeah, so the range is. I'm not sure what the range is. Okay, I can get the range. You know what though? But if you look at it historically, before you used to only have seven districts and seven district superintendents with the one deputy superintendent. And then when you first entered as a teacher in doe, long time ago.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
So since then Pat Hamamoto ended up doubling it. In fact, she went from 7 to 15 for the CAS. So over time we've almost. So. And then now we're tripling the amount of assistant or deputy soups.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
So I think initially in the beginning, when we did have seven districts and seven district superintendents, each district superintendent had a, had a deputy district superintendent. So, so there were, there were.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
I, I believe, and I'm not sure about Kauai, I'm not sure about Kauai, but I do know that the, each of the districts had a deputy and a deputy superintendent.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Yeah. But I don't, I don't really believe that going from seven districts to 15 CAs has been cost neutral because the CAs end up building up their, each capacity as well. So I, you know, it's probably, when you look at the overall staff, it's probably been quite a bit.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
I, I think too, when we look over time and the, the gains that the Department has made primarily in the area of academics and student learning, we have shown a very positive trajectory, which I think is, it goes through the hard work of everyone in the field, teachers and principals.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
But I Think as well as the leadership team that helps to support the field. I think everyone working together with the resources that we have have been instrumental in helping us to show those gains.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Yeah, well, we're not sure though, because you guys, there's no audit for it. And that's why I've been going back to your audit division doing more, not just financial audits, but performance and management audits. So they have, you haven't really had an audit to actually quantify what you're seeing.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
What has been the added costs not just for the two deputies but also for their support staff. Where is that money coming from?
- Tammi Oyadomari-Chun
Person
In the biennium budget that was passed. Last year, the two secretary positions were. Approved in the biennium, just not the deputy positions.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
But not only the FTEs for the two deputies that were requested last, the secretary, we got the other positions.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Yeah, we gave you all those other positions. So that's just more bodies and more costs that we're adding. You know that the, that your guys's budget take up one third of the state budget, Right. And it continues to grow, right?
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
I, I, I'm definitely aware of that, Senator, that we, we, we, we do take a large part of the state budget. We all, we are also though, I believe the largest agency in the state with. 20 somewhat thousand teachers and unnecessary expenditures.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
And we're going to get to some of that today and in future meetings in the Committee. But there's a lot of concern, you know, travel is one and we'll get to that.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
But again, you know, I'm not sure how the Department is really looking at how do we maximize the people that we already have and the budget we already have and, and tailor it instead of just adding more bureaucracy. Sure.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
The, the deputy position pays 165 to 195. That's the range.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
So you know what, how do you reconcile though the, the principal autonomy with the growing of the, of the district of the, I guess your offices and the, the district offices and the Kazis because if we're giving them more autonomy, but at the same time we're becoming one more top heavy. It's almost like two different philosophies.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Okay, thank you for the question, Chair. So principals at their schools do have, as a former principal, I appreciated the autonomy and working with my school community, whether it be the teachers and the parents and so forth to be able to create our academic plan and our financial plan specific to the needs of our school community.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
So that's really important. But those individual plans connect up to the broader picture. And I think that's where it's important that complex area superintendents come in. Because the CAS is then help to organize.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
No, but if that means the principals are leading the doe if they're really going to figure it out. But then now because they want to do certain things that were not part of the overall plan to begin with, now you have to step up resources to support so so versus it being more strategic.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
So each, each complex area has a complex. Also has a complex area plan that aligns to our state strategic plan. And so we have. Maybe if I go the other way it might, might be better for me if. So we have a state strategic plan that's approved by the board of education.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
And the strategic plan is what all of our leaders and our school system is working to achieve and to support. So at each of the complex areas, they take a look at the strategic plan and they create complex area plans that help to support their unique areas to move forward. And then the principles align to that.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Yeah, but what I haven't found, and we've had this discussion before, is as you enter into a new strategic plan, have you evaluated all the other things in the base that are obviously are not working because that's why you're doing a new strategic plan. But you haven't taken out anything that was in the base.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
So all we're doing is we're creating programs, adding positions and then we change direction. But we left everything there in the pre. With the previous strategy and the strategy before that and the stra. So it doesn't seem to be morphing. It seems to just be growing, I.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Think and jump in. I, I think when looking at the old strategic plan to our current one now actually it's builds on what we're doing on our. Because for us it wouldn't make sense I think to just switch from, from one plan to another. I think it's more nuanced and it's more.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
It builds upon previous plans so that we can, so that we can improve our trajectory.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Yeah, but it just. I just don't find going back to the auditing because you guys had program evaluators before think it should be separate. It should be like an audit to figure out is the, is it the right staffing? Are the, are the staff at each CAS level appropriate, effective, efficient.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
And I You know, we haven't really gotten that. That's why I have a real problem sometimes with project management positions because you have a strategic plan and now you, because you have the plan, you're justifying.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Now we got to add another position because we have this new strategy and now we need another position because we have this compo. This new strateg. And it just ends up growing and growing because you just keep justifying growing because you have a new strategy. But I don't necessarily see the outcomes.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
And you know, we talked about this with Ohe, and you told me oh it's because, you know, we want to make sure that we have the values, the culture, yet at the same time we have quite a bit of violence in [unintelligible], which I don't see the connection between how you take those Ohe values in school DOE.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
But then the community action, what's happening is not. Doesn't. Doesn't recognize. It doesn't seem to be synergistic or it doesn't seem to be helping the situation, but yet we're putting more and more resources into it.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Well, definitely, Senator chair, we can. I can follow up with you and kind of address the concerns that you have. If either deputy you want to jump in.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
It's not definitely point then the board is adding all these programs like O without even coming to the Legislature.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
And that's a question. Who is. Who's here from the Board of Education? Okay, so why is the board. The board approves all of these positions that you ask for.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
All of our requests that go to our board request is. Is part of our board approved. Approved.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
What person here can you come up and is. Is there is a chair of the board not here.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
So are these things that, you know, I watched, I watched some of your meetings and none of these kinds of questions are being asked. Is that. Is there a reason?
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
I think like anything else, you know, we looked at the department's presentation, specifically those things that they feel necessary in order to run the Department. So when the time for approval came about, you know, the Members in FIC approved and it went to the Gbm and in Gbm, the full board approved it.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
But did you guys even talk about and have them justify how this growth and the overall growth and whether it's really needed and you know, what, what, how much is it going to cost? What is that going to add? I mean, those are questions that I don't believe the board Members are asking.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
I think in, you know, in the situation, these numbers, the positions, everything else you know, the Department was able to justify the needs for the.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
I think again, you know, this is. Something's brought up and superintendent is saying he's going to, you know, work on these things and then in this thing will come back to the board. I'm sure.
- Wendy Hensel
Person
Okay, but if you just independently take a look at the landscape of our public schools are at make your own independent decision finding your own research and even just looking at this org chart right here. If you can tell me that these two additional deputy superintendent positions will help us with teacher shortage.
- Wendy Hensel
Person
Will it help you folks meet your locally produced food from 30% in 2030? If it will help us to bring school buses back. If it will help us to compete at a national level with our education numbers. The crime on in my district is very prevalent.
- Wendy Hensel
Person
So what you're telling me and what I'm doing witnessing on the ground are two totally different impressions. So there seems to be a disconnect because you're you, you're coming in my oppression to this com to this Committee with a very detached mentality of what our school is facing today.
- Wendy Hensel
Person
And so you haven't given us any numbers, any data, no statistics, nothing to grab onto that justifies two more positions other than sensationalism. This is what we want to the culture. This is helpful. But this doesn't help to get our graduation rate up. This doesn't help to transition our our seniors from high school into career pathways.
- Wendy Hensel
Person
So I'm just not seeing any real time results. The only thing I'm seeing is more top heavy Executive levels getting paid very generous salaries. Meanwhile the real people that are doing the work are in the schools working for what I would consider compared to your folk salary as nothing.
- Wendy Hensel
Person
And so there just seems to be a disconnect from reality of what we're facing. Not to mention the Executive branch has threatened to withdraw tax breaks that was promised to the public. And yet you're over here asking us for $7 million for engineering positions. Meanwhile we have 190 positions vacant that's totaling $14 million.
- Wendy Hensel
Person
So I don't know if you guys aren't taking this serious or if you just have mechanically trained yourselves to come and present the way that you guys have always presented. But this is a serious problem. The DOE is failing miserably. Not even in other district overall compared to the nation.
- Wendy Hensel
Person
And we're not even going to take it to worldwide, which we are years behind of other countries that are exponentially preparing their students for real life. And here we are continuing to add more Executive positions. So how is this going to help us with teacher shortage? How is this going to help us with absenteeism?
- Wendy Hensel
Person
How is this going to help us to keep local teachers here, retain our local teachers, and then also get our students with the basic soft skills? We're talking about basics. We're not even trying to graduate experts here.
- Wendy Hensel
Person
We're trying to graduate kids that can do the basics in the workforce to be able to get them to be able to survive here in Hawaii, just with basic personable skills.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
So, Senator, for the Department, we are not definitely. The basics are important. We're graduating students who are globally competitive and locally committed. That's our commitment.
- Wendy Hensel
Person
In my district, we have 50%. Hold on. We have 50 because your numbers and my numbers are not adding up. We have 50% of students in my district that regularly attend school. 50% regularly. My district. We are number one in absenteeism. So how do these two positions help my district?
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
And we are definitely working with. With the schools in your district to help adjust absenteeism Issue the question about whether Hawaii students can compete nationally. If I can. This was part of our slide deck presentation on grade four reading.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
And the National Assessment of Educational Progress is referred to sometimes, oftentimes as the nation's report card because we can compare apples to apples with this assessment. So the NAEP assessment, as you can see here, Hawaii was in the bottom 10 states in 2003. We're in the top 15.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
15. But you know, these two deputies recently. So you can't take those numbers and compare it to the. The two. I think so. I mean, I don't want this to continue to go on.
- Wendy Hensel
Person
Well, I mean, and if you guys are doing so great nationally, then we don't need these two positions.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
I think the two positions help to. In response to academic pandemic recovery.
- Wendy Hensel
Person
Okay, okay. Pandemic recovery is coming from the fact that students from the pandemic are graduating already, so they're no longer on the books.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
I can, I can talk with you after and we can touch pieces more.
- Wendy Hensel
Person
Well, I mean, I just. I just need the justification to be impacted in real time, not in a PowerPoint. When I go to the schools and when parents come up to me.
- Wendy Hensel
Person
Out there many times, but still, nothing is getting done. Nothing is getting done. You know as well as I know that the facilities in Waianae have been neglected for many, many Years. And that's not just on you, that's on everybody involved.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Let's so you know. Thank you. How do you. Who evaluates the different CAs then? Because if Nana Cooley. Why not? If she's saying that the absenteeism is that high, wouldn't that be the complex area superintendent? And how long has that number, that percentage been like that? And has anything been done so that the CAS takes corrective action?
- Heidi Armstrong
Person
I oversee the CAS is. And the answer is yes. I was just this morning at Nana.
- Heidi Armstrong
Person
Many years. And it, it, it is more than just a school issue. It is a community issue. And the two schools I visited today, Nanakuli High School and Nana e. Kapono Elementary. 55% chronic absenteeism. They are going to the parents home. They are calling the parents. The parents say, oh I'm just waking up. They've changed.
- Heidi Armstrong
Person
If they have reading first thing in the morning and only four first graders are on time, they put reading off until 9 o' clock when the first graders start trickling in. Meantime that office staff is calling the parents. They're going to the parents house, they're sending messages, they're providing supports.
- Heidi Armstrong
Person
What does the parent need to get the child home? They are working extremely hard with their community to get these kids to school. So I'm sorry, I would disagree when I hear that the CAs are, the principals are not doing anything to support. Let's be clear, they are.
- Wendy Hensel
Person
You guys are not. You're the ones here trying to justify why you need more money and more positions. So let's just be very clear on what I'm communicating and let me bring this home.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
You know, talk about my school. We had a, we, we had a program that kids wanted to come to school. Principal comes in, the KAZ appoints the principal and they cut the program after nine years and now kids all come to school. So you're telling us about absenteeism and everything, what you're doing and it's on your watch.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
It just happened two years now and now we had to fix it. Finally after months and months of going back and forth with your cas, which I, I have a lot of issues that I can share with you and other Members here have also complained about this.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
So I don't know what kind of evaluation that you're doing, but certainly there's concerns. The other area of concern we talk about outcomes is the Medicaid reimbursements. How much Medicaid reimbursements have you done.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
And. Because we're leaving millions off the table, we're not getting reimbursed for any of these services that you're providing in the schools because you haven't gotten the reimbursement we were claiming.
- Heidi Armstrong
Person
And when the Department and this happens, nobody wants it to happen, but it does happen nationwide. So what happened in November of 2023? We were doing direct service claiming. And. And how much did we get back there? Because I understand we didn't even get a fair share.
- Heidi Armstrong
Person
Other states are getting a lot more. Give you the numbers. We were bringing in money for direct service claim which is smaller.
- Heidi Armstrong
Person
We were also bringing in funds for administrative costs claiming the the Medicaid section found that our claims through the way that we were, that they were being transmitted through the system, the technology that we have were not being recorded accurately when they arrived at Cms. Right.
- Heidi Armstrong
Person
I. So in May 2025 we received or April 2025 we did receive from DHS a school based Medicaid claiming guide which they created, which we did not have before. So that guides the processes in a document that we need to follow prior. It was weekly meetings. We did the process correctly.
- Heidi Armstrong
Person
It was our technology that didn't allow the claim for skilled nursing to differentiate between a nursing service that was a nurse to a child versus a nurse to 23 or four children.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Understand. But is again it's in the claims. And since 2023 to now we haven't applied for these in.
- Heidi Armstrong
Person
In. We were still claiming for administrative claiming that halted in January 2025. We submitted a quality assurance report to DHS, our state Medicaid agency.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Let me shortcut this. How much did we collect? How much have did we collect back in 2023, 2024, 2025? What did we collect in Medicaid reimbursements?
- Heidi Armstrong
Person
It was in the millions and I will give you those numbers. So this pause is temporary and you can expect claiming to resume if our plan and we have an articulated plan which I am more than happy to go over with you in January 2027. So next January is this pause.
- Heidi Armstrong
Person
The pause is that we expect to get new systems that can accurately record.
- Heidi Armstrong
Person
Them to the pause from direct services was November 2023. The pause from administrative claiming was from 2025.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
January I was referring to. We did not. You did not make claims since. Since 2023 for the direct. For the direct reimbursements Right. Correct. Okay, so how much did we get before that?
- Donna Kim
Legislator
So from 2023 to now, how many? Three, four. Three years. We've not collected anything for the direct.
- Heidi Armstrong
Person
Payments, not for direct, but we have collected for administrative claiming. And I'll give you those numbers.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
We didn't get any for Direct. And millions of dollars, right? Correct. A few. That's, that's falls directly under you and to me that's the outcome and we have, we don't have it and you've not done anything. I'm, I shouldn't say anything, but we.
- Heidi Armstrong
Person
Haven'T F. That we are working with three years state Medicaid to fix it. The fix involves.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
I agree under your watch. It's not been brought up, but it's been there and it's still not fixed. So this, this, this is not acceptable.
- Heidi Armstrong
Person
And, and we do have a plan to do what needs to be done to Restart Direct Service claiming by January 2027, next January, another year. This requires integrating and adopting a new platform that will, that is integrated with all of our other platforms to be able to successfully transmit claims so that miscalculations are not made.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
But you don't have a temporary plan to collect at least some instead of just stopping.
- Heidi Armstrong
Person
Unless we, we can't do direct service claiming now. In addition, in, in June, there were additional requirements for Medicaid that require us to have our related service providers.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
I think you guys should go back and relook at a transition instead of just doing a straight recess or take not doing it for a while.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Senator, we'll definitely relook at what we're doing and we'll get together with you to share the different challenges that we've, we've encountered.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
But you know, when you guys encountered this problem and you knew how much money that we're leaving on the table, I mean what was the cost for us to make to fix it because of the amount of money that we're leaving on the table.
- Heidi Armstrong
Person
Can I go back to your original question? We got the numbers. In 2023 we collected 3.67 million in direct service claiming and 1.6 million in admin claiming. In 2024 we collected 2.27 million in direct service claiming and 2.94 million in admin claiming.
- Heidi Armstrong
Person
And in 2025 we stopped the direct service claiming and we collected 2.43 million in admin claiming.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
So in addition to us, not us pausing and not even collecting, I'm not even sure that we're collecting the maximum we're, we're able to collect.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
You're telling me that we only expend like in, in November, 3.67 million for direct reimbursement costs because we were only.
- Heidi Armstrong
Person
Building billing for skilled nursing services. We are currently looking at our position descriptions, our duties and the way that our related service providers collect the, their, collect their service information which requires consult and confer with the union.
- Heidi Armstrong
Person
And these are all steps that we are taking to hopefully complete prior to January 2026 so that we can fully comply with our state Medicaid medical model in school based billing.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
But you knew back in November 23rd when we was only collecting $3.3.67 million that we weren't describing it correctly. We weren't submitting some of these claims correctly, which resulted in us not getting all, getting all of the claims.
- Heidi Armstrong
Person
We, we were collecting it correctly and we were, the issue came with our infrastructure and how the claims were submitted.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
But again, this just goes back to, you know, what are the outcomes when you add on these positions and we don't see improvements? It's very difficult to justify on our end.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
What did the other states do? I mean there's nothing you can't learn from what they do and use some.
- Heidi Armstrong
Person
We do. And while nobody wants to go through this, many states do have to put a pause. And if they don't put a pause and correct the billing process, they do owe back money. States have owed back 40 million to Philadelphia.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
But does it have to be a pause? There can be something temporarily and then a transition. You might want to look at that. We're leaving money on the table.
- Heidi Armstrong
Person
We understand that and we are doing what we need to do. And I'll give a full briefing, but we are doing what we need to do in order to get billing restarted.
- Heidi Armstrong
Person
And I can go over all of the different steps that are being done and the timeline for each of those steps so that we can resume billing in January 2027.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
And so how long have you guys been working on trying to figure this out?
- Heidi Armstrong
Person
We've been working with DHS since they've always been our partner since the beginning of billing for Medicaid.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Dropping the amount of money that we were getting. Let me ask you this. Do we have an educational specialist position that has given us responsibility to work on this? Yes, we do. You have somebody? Yes, we do. Okay, well, that even worries me even more.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
It says here the Medicaid was a problem in 2018. So we've known since 2018 that it was problematic. And I'm getting this from people texting me from. Who's watching this? Who's in the know?
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
The blank amounts are what the Governor did not include in his budget.
- Lynn DeCoite
Legislator
Chair, I know you Talked about table 15, but you just brought up CAS earlier. Can talk about casual.
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
Can you talk about what the 146,000. That you have in capacity. Why is that increase from. I think we gave you 3 million last year, but you're asking for 146,000? What is that for?
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
So we have budget request that we. Central Board of Education.
- Jesse Suki
Person
Sorry, many notes. So we actually asked for, approved by the board, 288.3 million in capacity. That lump sum bucket. And the purpose of that ask was for escapoli elementary School, 142 million plus 4 million. King Kamehameha III Replacement School. We asked for 141 million.
- Jesse Suki
Person
And core Ridge Elementary School, that's a new school for design, we asked for 1.3 million. We on cipher were 15.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
I can have a bunch of question. Okay, what is our back. What is the amount of encumbered funds for projects? And I have asked this question earlier, Superintendent. You never gave me the list. I asked this back in June, April, June, because you gave it to us in 2023.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
And it was about 1.0 what, $5 billion that was encumbered, but the projects are not completed. And my understanding is that has grown. That number has grown. I asked for that. I did not get it. I asked BNF for it. They gave it to me.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Not with all the information that you folks have, because they said they don't have all the information. So. And then when I asked the board members who came to meet with me, they said they asked for it and they never got it either.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
So I'm very concerned about that number and why, why we're not getting that kind of.
- Keith Hayashi
Person
I apologize for that Chair. If I said that and I didn't give it to you, then that's, that's on me. I apologize for that.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Oh, and I also brought that up to Audrey. Right? Audrey, you were in my office. I asked you for that. I never got it. I mean, I don't know what we're hiding, but that's a lot of money. That's. That is there billions that is sitting there and we're not. You're coming in for these other monies.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
I'm not sure how that works, because. Do you need 214 million in order to finish the 900, 893 million dollars worth of projects? Old construction contracts? Well, the money to, to finish all these.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Okay, so is that the correct number? What is it? 1.5 billion? I.
- Jesse Suki
Person
We can provide the information and we'll provide it. But specifically, you want to know what. Because there's different ways to.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
No, it's hard to ask for new CIP money if you have quite a bit of projects that you have cash for but you cannot get, you can't finish. Because don't you want to finish those first?
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Because if not, then all of this cash or this CIP is just going to get delayed, and you're not going to be able to do it because you still got the $1.5 billion worth of projects.
- Jesse Suki
Person
So in the lump sum request that we're making in these buckets, these are for projects that we have prioritized and identified following our process and criteria. These are projects that are moving forward. You know, they're going to get built. We have projects in the pipeline that have construction money, that have design money.
- Jesse Suki
Person
I'm not sure if you specific about what you're looking for. We can get that.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
What are all the projects that you've encumbered but you haven't finished?
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Yeah, you gave me that in 2023. You asked for it from Wham. Was about this thick, and it was about $1.5 billion. And I've raised that in Committee meetings last time, and then I asked for it this year again, and I have not gotten it.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
And that number didn't go down. That number went up. And that's why I wanted an update to the 2023 report that you have given me. I wanted an update, and I told that to Audrey in that meeting. You said you guys would get back to me. I asked the board.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Some of the couple of the board members that I met with, they never got it as well. So I'm not sure how the board can even perform when they're not getting this kind of information and that they're not asking these questions.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Senator, why wouldn't you guys have that? You know you're coming before us. It's. It's been there for years.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Senator, we had sent you the information back in July, but we will send it again. I never got it. How many pages was it? I don't know, but we'll send it again right away. Oh, it was originally sent in.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Come on, you got to know within a. 1 billion, 2 billion, 10 billion?
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
It's about 1.6 billion, right? I don't know. I don't want to. I don't want to say something and I gotta slap myself later, but we'll. Send it to you again. Okay, wait. So here.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
I'm sorry, Here we have a room full of people getting paid, you know, decent amount of money and everything, and this is your Kuleana this is your area that you're supposed to know and you know, it's a budget briefing. We got an I have to sit here in all the departments and know all of this.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
How is it that we get the numbers? And you guys, who's, this is your budget. You guys don't want the numbers. That's what I can't understand. You, you got all these deputies, all these assistant deputies, all these people on, on this, and yet you guys don't have the numbers and this is a budget briefing.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
But it seems like, I'm sorry, it seems like every year we go through this. Every year, not just you guys, other departments come, they're not prepared, they don't give us the numbers. They get it to us, they get it to us after that so that they don't need to respond in public to us about these numbers.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
But I assure you that you will have every opportunity to respond to all of these questions in public in our subject matter Committee.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Okay. I'm just, I'm still trying to figure out if you have a backlog that much in that amount, how are you going to be able to finish the projects that you're asking for in 27. Are we going to complete these projects?
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Because if you have 1.5 billion of backlog projects that you have cash for but you didn't finish, how are you going to do these? I mean, you only got so many staff.
- Jesse Suki
Person
Well, we do projects. We can get your amount per year. The last report to the board we did like, what is it, 23 projects from July to December, that reporting period as a snapshot. And before that it was like 90 something. And that was another snapshot.
- Jesse Suki
Person
So the projects are being done and completed and for these projects we're asking for, if we got the money, they would be completed either for the design or the construction.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Yeah, but you can only do so much. So every time you guys come in and ask us for the CIP, these are projects that you guys cannot complete because you have so many still on the books and you can only do so many a year. And then in the what year you folks didn't do projects.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
And so you missed four summers of construction cycles, 2021 to 2024. Each last summer compounds delays, cost escalation and public frustrations. Okay, the backlog is 1.0 encumbered unspent obligations. 893 million of the 1.7 billion are unfinished construction contracts.
- Jesse Suki
Person
Yeah, that sounds about right. But I want to get you the exact numbers. I just don't have it.
- Jesse Suki
Person
Well, a lot. Well, first of all, we're thankful to the Legislature for allowing us to have the lump sum approach that was started with Act 250 and that allows us more flexibility with getting projects completed rather than having hundreds of line items, which makes it difficult that. That was a big help and projects are moving since.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Okay, but those are current projects moving. You have hundreds of projects that's been sitting on the books for years. Right. 2016. It's sitting there. It's not complete. You've got money on the table. You got other organizations crying for. For monies. And you folks are sitting on over a billion dollars offered encumbered funds.
- Jesse Suki
Person
It's not really money on the table in that way. It's like design might be completed but construction's not funded. Or design is in process, but it needs more funding for the design.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Those are the ones that all need more funding because the cost escalated for whatever reasons. Now you cannot complete the project. So some of them has a lot of unspent dollars sitting there because you need more money to complete the project.
- Jesse Suki
Person
Yeah. And. And through the prioritization and the lump sum buckets, we've been able to focus and do the projects with the highest need and we appreciate.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Can you provide us the list on which projects you. From that billion. One point. Billion dollar projects. Which ones did you actually complete?
- Donna Kim
Legislator
From the encumbered. Encumbered $1.6 billion projects that are sitting there. Not from the ones we gave you.
- Jesse Suki
Person
So. Okay, I want to get it. I want to get it right. So from the last report, you want us to update, like what was completed?
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Yes. Well, I want to see the. I want to see the current mount. How much it's grown and then I want to see what projects were completed.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Okay, sure. But is that part of the 7 million? Ask then, because you have all those projects on the books and you guys.
- Jesse Suki
Person
Need the capacity building the 7 million for the ceiling. That was for our deferred maintenance.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
That doesn't even help with any of this. No, that's deferred maintenance. The 7 million that JD and guys are asking for. Yeah.
- Lynn DeCoite
Legislator
Can we also get the breakdown of some of the repair and maintenance projects that they had on the books that have been something? Yeah. She's asking as well.
- Lynn DeCoite
Legislator
So I wanted to go back to the cas. You know, I don't know what some of them are doing in relation to communication with the principals. I just got back from Lanai. They don't even know what's going on with the CIP projects and that you folks have taken it over and prioritized it.
- Lynn DeCoite
Legislator
So money that was sitting there that would look, they're looking at lapsing. He doesn't understand because he hasn't been having communication with them.
- Lynn DeCoite
Legislator
I don't know where the rest of the other principals are at, but you know, there seems to be a disconnect of where those priority projects are going to lie and that you folks are now in charge of CIPs versus us putting in those priority projects to help our districts. So can you guys have better communication with them?
- Lynn DeCoite
Legislator
And I did spend time with Kazwinke at the schools, but again, you know, I had to literally be there to say can you let them know the DOE is now in charge of CIP projects and it's not us. So when I'm walking around and having conversation, it's not a white is not fixed.
- Lynn DeCoite
Legislator
How come you guys not doing this? Because what I don't like is that you guys have now prioritized what projects can move at a smaller level. When I get on gym cracking, I get the roof falling in, I get construction going on and now I cannot have no sports whatsoever. Go on.
- Lynn DeCoite
Legislator
Well, I gotta go figure out the community center and how I move the sports programs around, which is huge in my district, as you know. So that communication has to be clean. They don't know what's happening. You know, I went into Hana a couple weeks ago as well.
- Lynn DeCoite
Legislator
You know, I need Principal Sunita, you know, and he's still trying to figure things out himself. You worry with where you guys going and how you guys moving the projects forward. You know, Laurie has been really good and I'd say I'm not blaming anything on, on Rebecca, but the communication ain't there.
- Keith Hayashi
Person
Well, thank you, Senator. We'll definitely reach out back to the CASUS to be sure that that communicate that two way communication is important and that especially the principals know what's happening. That's really important. That's what. Thank you.
- Lynn DeCoite
Legislator
Because even when I tried to follow and I just couldn't tell you straight. I even emailed and texted you and I couldn't even get a response from you. Which is why I kind of looking at all these positions. Do I have to climb through the act of Congress to also have a communication with you as well?
- Keith Hayashi
Person
My apologies for that. I try to. Especially for our legislators. I try to respond back right away. So I. I did it. I apologize. That's not normal. So sorry about that.
- Jesse Suki
Person
Senator. If I could also add in response the way that the priorities are determined are not just at the state office. That process is a process that involves the principals and the casas. And every year those projects get identified.
- Lynn DeCoite
Legislator
Let me tell you about the principle. I drive past the school every day. You know how long take to get the damn tree off of the gym. It grew from here to how big. And it became a CIP project. We shoved everything else down. We.
- Lynn DeCoite
Legislator
Which tells me even some of these principals have no idea what's going on in their school. Which is why when the connection of them to work with that letter Director, which I don't know what kind of training you guys giving. What makes it even worse is that we get perfectly good people applying for a principal position.
- Lynn DeCoite
Legislator
But it needs to be recommended by the principal that probably don't like the other person. Which is why I always believe that it should be open so that we get one really good principal that actually has boots on the ground, know the community and can have that relationship.
- Lynn DeCoite
Legislator
But as I saying, all these positions do me no good if I cannot even get that happening. I would rather see these positions payment go to the teachers. So I get more teachers coming in there and staying there versus I get in the flight by nights.
- Keith Hayashi
Person
And Senator, I'll follow up on the. Because I think we both had a discussion on your concern just now. So.
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
Okay, just go back to table 15 on your CIP. You have this BNF adjustment add funds for preventive maintenance. What is that 30 million?
- Jesse Suki
Person
The 30 million for preventative maintenance that was added in the CIP. So we requested 30 million in preventative maintenance in the operating budget. That's table 5. Yeah, right. That's where it usually is replacing it into the. That's what we asked for. And then in Executive budget they moved it to CIP.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Yeah. So it's intake, It's. It's outlined in table five as the third item. Right? Yeah. And all preferences. And so now it's placed in the CIP.
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
So. But, but what do you do? Preventive maintenance, like repairs and anything. It's not. So it's not really CIP.
- Jesse Suki
Person
Right. We would, we would prefer if it remained in operating because it gives us more flexibility to address things before they actually become.
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
So what are you paying for then? If it's C, it's different than A funds. Right.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
A funds are supposed to be real short term. I think they're short term projects.
- Jesse Suki
Person
Preventative maintenance are quick small fixes to prevent things from breaking. So when you move it into CIP, then we have to rethink about how we deploy those funds. It's not as flexible. It has to be CIP bond type restricted projects.
- Troy Hashimoto
Legislator
But have you had any conversations with BNF to give you shorter term bonds if they insist on using C funds? You know, because I think it's, it's a perpetual issue. Right. Like, you know, if you only need cash and there's no cash. But we still got to do the maintenance, we got to go figure out another strategy.
- Troy Hashimoto
Legislator
Right, but, but there's been no conversations with. Yes, not, not too much because we. Do, we're only doing taxable bonds right now. I don't think it's, it's non taxable GEO bonds because we had an issue a few years ago. Right. So I would assume that there's more flexibility.
- Troy Hashimoto
Legislator
And I used to see bonding funds, but there's no conversations.
- Troy Hashimoto
Legislator
No, I know, but you have no operating funds. What's your recourse? Right. But if you're not having any conversations on what the limits are, that's a little bit concerning.
- Jesse Suki
Person
Yeah. I mean, we appreciate the funding. We'll figure out how to use it. It just changes the dynamic about how we respond.
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
CIP is for long term, it's not for painting. And it depends.
- Troy Hashimoto
Legislator
It depends on how long the bond is. Right. Because there's a short term bond too.
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
More repair and maintenance. Not long term new buildings or construction. Right.
- Troy Hashimoto
Legislator
But, but I think the overarching question is, is what is your facility strategy? Right. I think that's on how we're going to deal with the backlog. Right. That Senator Kim has been talking about, how we're going to expand that now, are you going to force lap some of that?
- Troy Hashimoto
Legislator
Are you going to, are you going to actually do some of that. I think there is no clarity and we're a little bit concerned. Right. And I think I had a conversation with the Chair of your board and asked him what is your facility strategy? And he didn't respond. Right.
- Troy Hashimoto
Legislator
He didn't give me a strategy that I was satisfied with. And I don't know, I hope you guys in subject matter can show us that there is a strategy to figure out how we're going to move forward. Yes, giving you lump sums, that's one part of the strategy.
- Troy Hashimoto
Legislator
But part of it is how are you going to fill those positions? How are you going to get things done in a timely manner? How are you going to decentralize some of these projects? Because every time I ask about a project at the local level, they're like, oh, we got to ask.
- Troy Hashimoto
Legislator
So it goes up the chain and then all of a sudden it ends up back, back at your shop. Right. And, and so if the people on the ground don't know what's going on with, with projects, that's concerning because in theory they're the ones that are supposed to be managing the day to day.
- Troy Hashimoto
Legislator
So I think there just needs to be, you know, a reset. And you guys have to clearly articulate where we're going with this because as I told you personally, we're the biggest advocates of the doe.
- Troy Hashimoto
Legislator
We put in in all this money but if you cannot spend it, you know, we got to, we got to re pivot and figure out why and how we're going to do moving forward.
- Troy Hashimoto
Legislator
But I think you got to show, especially if you don't want to give up projects to School Facilities Authority, you need to show us that you're capable of making sure that you can execute.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
But have you guys considered a portal or a dashboard so that principals, teachers, parents can see where their projects are?
- Donna Kim
Legislator
And zero, don't even go there because this is their Improving School Facilities tracking thing. On all the CIPs which has not. Been updated is that CPT. Office of Facilities Operation Improving School Facility Design Build Jobs Tracker. We can't even get the tracker. They don't even update it.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
It says 52125 and so when I go to look here, they don't have anything blank.
- Jesse Suki
Person
There's two things that principals and CASAs can use to see where projects are. If it's repair maintenance, they can use Maximal and that that tells them where their projects are. If there's a busted toilet, they put it in Maximal and RNM addresses it and gets put into the system. If it's CIP.
- Jesse Suki
Person
They can, they can look into CPT. And it's all real time. It's updated. Yeah.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
No, real time meaning what that one is. They can see every day that if the status changed or not. I'm not sure if it's edited every day, but it's updated.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
It says updated. I looked at it in 52025 which is updated, but it wasn't updated.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
It's from your folks's website. Website? Yeah. I didn't make it up. It's there. No, no, but again, just tell me how adding on your deputies that this got improved. This didn't get improved.
- Jesse Suki
Person
Yeah. There's different tools in the, in the, in the back that CAS is and principals can use. Yeah.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
But again, this is a tool that you folks have on your site that's never not been updated.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
You know, part of it goes back to our earlier conversation on the audits. That's why I still think we need to relook at your audit division, which supposed to be attached to the Board of Education, but then they decided to put it under you. Right.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Yeah. I believe it still reports to the board. Does it or not? I, I, I believe internal audit reports. Okay, so who does she report to? She reports directly to the board Chair.
- Keith Hayashi
Person
I think on the ORG. On the ORG chart. On the ORG chart. I'm trying to think that I.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Believe, since I thought a previous board said, okay, we don't want to manage it, it should go back under the superintendent.
- Keith Hayashi
Person
Yeah, I, I believe the internal auditor reports to the board. I'm not sure which supervisor on the ORG chart. Yeah, I don't, She I don't believe that she sits under that. She sits in the check. Yes.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
But I think, I want to be sure I give you the right answer. Because when our conversations are red, blue, red book versus blue book, and it seems like all she does is the.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
But what we want to make sure is that there's also the performance audits, management audits, because a lot of these issues could be hopefully solved sooner if you had that kind of, if she had that kind of capacity. And then now you can deal with it versus it just mounting and mounting and mounting faster. Better for you.
- Samantha DeCorte
Legislator
Yeah, I wanted to really quick. I just wanted to circle back with Senator DeCoite's mention about the CIPs and now that being funneled through DOE. The problem with that and finding it very Problematic in my community is that the public doesn't know the difference. Right?
- Samantha DeCorte
Legislator
So when they come up to us and they let us know that as example, they cannot enter into the girls locker room because the plumbing is backed up still yet 5 plus years, so on and so forth, and even though I tell them they have to go through the principal, principal has to go through the CAS, the public doesn't know the difference.
- Samantha DeCorte
Legislator
They just see the state and they see us. We are a little bit more accessible. So I don't know if your requirements for the CAS should be to come to.
- Samantha DeCorte
Legislator
Well, I guess this would only apply to Oahu neighborhood board meetings, but something that's a little bit more excessive because again, when I tell them that they have to go through the principal, they have to go through the CAS, they're not getting responses.
- Samantha DeCorte
Legislator
And so then it puts us in the pressure seat and we can't even get access to it. I've been trying to get CIP projects funding information for, well, a few months now. So I'm not sure how we could better streamline this system.
- Samantha DeCorte
Legislator
I would like to just be able to let my community know, hey, there's a work order or no, it didn't get processed as easy as that.
- Samantha DeCorte
Legislator
But when they hear, well, you got to go to your principal, that just buys into the stereotype of who the public thinks that we are and just pushes it off to the next person.
- Samantha DeCorte
Legislator
And so they don't realize that our hands are tied through a system that we don't even have access to and we don't get regular updates.
- Samantha DeCorte
Legislator
So I don't know internally if this system is working for you, but I'm saying it's not working for my community and, and it's definitely not working for me because I can't even get the basic information on what's happening in my own community yet. Facility facilities are failing miserably. So something has to be reorganized.
- Samantha DeCorte
Legislator
There has to be more accountability on the cas. I don't know exactly who, I know who oversees it, but I don't know where the accountability factor comes in. But there's a disconnect. So I have to say that. Thank you. Let me go to.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Yeah, go ahead, travel. Oh no, you want to go? No, the contract.
- Lynn DeCoite
Legislator
So, so just as a follow up to, to Senator DeCorte. You know, you guys used to send out memos before. Like you guys never have a problem, you know, sending it out and, and now we just don't get it anymore. Project coming out, okay, this is being completed, this event is happening.
- Lynn DeCoite
Legislator
You know, we all of us have on broad reach in our districts and. And it's hard for us to communicate clean up and down the chain. So I don't know. I mean, the communication just really got worse. I mean, it got worse.
- Lynn DeCoite
Legislator
And, you know, sometimes when we go home, you know, we there, but walking through the store and for buying gallon milk, take me four hours right now. Because they're trying to explain what you guys doing but not doing. You know, every Friday is a sent on e blast to basically recognize what all the state departments are doing.
- Lynn DeCoite
Legislator
The biggest is education. The biggest complaint I get, and it's super frustrating. Super frustrating. And like I said, it made it worse to me. You guys took over the CIPs because the CIPs in my mind is more repair and maintenance. But you guys are doing pipelines this small, kind of renovations.
- Lynn DeCoite
Legislator
There's bigger projects, and most of those had lapsed. And now that communication doesn't stem to those principles who like, bro, I don't even know what happened. I go, wow, really? You know, and I shouldn't have to be the one calling the cast. So the direction come from you guys to cast, but you keep putting layers.
- Lynn DeCoite
Legislator
And, you know, I would stick about money. You know, I go pay you do your job. If not, I just will hire her to do the job for you guys since she digging up all kinds of. It's like, I don't know what else you're finding in. In the mess, but, you know, it's. It's not a good fit.
- Lynn DeCoite
Legislator
I don't like coming here and having to kind of like pound on you guys and trying to say, like, clean up the mess. Like, we're trying to help you, but you got to clean them up, you know?
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Okay. Speaking of messes. So we go to travel. Yeah. Okay. Table 23.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Can you folks explain why we have 200 and how many pages. 204-218 pages of this. That has no explanation, no nothing on it.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
I'll take that one. So this is the third year in which the Legislature is asking for this level of detail. The first year, which was 2024, we had a similar problem. We have over 8,000 travelers or trips taken both inner island and mainland.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Well, yeah, with 40,000 employees and I think we make up over about 40% of the state's employees. But for these 8,000 trips, for a statewide system where there's travel going Inter Island, a lot of it might be maintenance work, which is priority area. For example, to collect these 12 elements of information was prohibitively.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Okay, Brian, so what we did that first year was we. We pulled PDFs of every travel report and, and made that available. But it contains personally identifiable information we could not provide to publicly. So last year we. We provided information in this format and this year we provided the same information.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
I think if there's, if there's concerns, if there's something you want to delve into, it's something that we could look at an area that collects this information. Sorry, just 11 last point. Vendor payment, payroll. This is a very overworked, understaffed area that is already having overtime challenges.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Those are reasons. Well, we have had requests that haven't been funded in the past for additional support and through the process for additional help in those areas. But that's. That's. I apologize. It is my area that. That compiles this report or has been asked to compile this report. But again it's just been prohibitively difficult.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
So it's your responsibility. If you think that there's areas that is question that you can't do, why don't you come back and ask. Ask us because for, for you guys to give me list of $45, $45, $65, $45. Come on. You know we're not after that. We're not after the. What is per diem? Is it gas?
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
What is that cost associated with Inter Island travel? And those are. Those are per diem rates. Yeah, probably some per diem rates or.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
RA give us per diem on everything. I mean we get. We ask the same question of every other Department and they put it through and they don't give us per diem. So I mean.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Well, that's a travel associated cost which Is what, what we believe the report was seeking.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
You could have come back and said, do you guys want this per diem? Because you know, we don't want that. We want to see what the travel amounts, you know, $1,600. 3,000, to 40,000, whatever amount of trips. And we want that information. What is 240-218 pages.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Yeah, that's something that I think we'd be open to talking to what is really needed for decision making purposes or even just public information purposes. What do you need, Brian?
- Donna Kim
Legislator
You've done this before. Exactly, you've done this before. You know what we're after. So for you folks to give us 216 pages of this to me is like a slap in the face.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
I'm sorry, I actually, honestly, I'm not sure what, what is being sought by, by the Committee.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
We provided thought, you know, we want to know how much we're actually spending on some of these trips.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
We provided a presentation in the format that was requested and a lot of tables and, and we, we skipped over the presentation because we went straight to some tape one table. So I, I'm sorry, I, I don't actually know what folks want and maybe that's something we could work on.
- Samantha DeCorte
Legislator
Okay, so let me just, if I may, justification for travel. That's blank. Position number, job title. Is that, am I looking at the.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Yeah, but he's saying that it's just too much stuff for them to put on and. Yeah, if you're going to give us all the per diem, it is a lot, but we're not after the per diem.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Well, we pulled the information that was readily extractable from a system that wasn't prohibitively difficult or time consuming to pull. And we provided that if, if justification for travel is something that the Committee is, is interested in or, or, or needs, we can. Well, when you into pulling that.
- Samantha DeCorte
Legislator
Well, when, when the work related travel accumulates to almost $4 million. Yeah, it's important. It's important to the public, it's important to taxpayers. So when you're bringing us a spreadsheet, you have no position number, no job title, no justification for travel, no agenda, meetings checked, training session.
- Samantha DeCorte
Legislator
I mean it just shows that you're just not taking this serious. So when you're SPE dollars. Yeah, we're going to take it serious.
- Samantha DeCorte
Legislator
And so the fact that you're coming here with 218 pages and this is not even filled out, I mean it's, it's no wonder why from the top and we trickle down to the bottom, we're getting substandard reports, we're getting moderate results is because you folks who are the top and you are representing the top, you are coming over here to present your budget, to ask us for money, but you can't even give us updated fill in the blanks.
- Samantha DeCorte
Legislator
I mean, so whatever system that you're using, if you can't easily download it like this, or even if you had to manually put it in, I mean, you've got positions to be able to do this work in. You knew you were coming in front of the Senate.
- Samantha DeCorte
Legislator
You know, this is a time where there's going to be some cutbacks. I don't want that cutbacks to have to be to taxpayers. I would prefer that it be through the departments. And so when you are not putting in the work to execute a report and then it totaling out to be almost $4 million.
- Samantha DeCorte
Legislator
Yeah, we're going to take it serious. And maybe this is not what you had expected to come and to respond to today, but you have to pivot. You have to understand that because you folks carry one third of the budget, that, yeah, we're going to be just a little bit more microscopic with you folks.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
So. And I appreciate that. And you know, for context, we. We spent about 2% of our budget for Administration. That includes superintendent's office, HR, fiscal, community engagement, civil rights, all these areas. We are by far the lowest in the nation in the percent of spending for the state, for state admin.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
By far the reason I bring up overtime. We are, we are stretched, we are challenged, just like you folks are too. I'm sure with staffing and finding folks to actually do this work. Our current processes is manual. We rely on paper forms to collect and route for approval and to document the payments.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
My area is on the back end on the vendor payment side. So we process the reimbursements we're processing based on what's basically an image. So what I'm talking about is prohibitively difficult for us. We would have to set aside getting those 40,000 employees paid every twice a month.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
The 300,000 vendor payments that have to go out every year. We would have to. It's not an either or situation. It's if we got to do everything, there's only so much time in the day. And so that this is the first questioning we're getting in three years on this.
- Samantha DeCorte
Legislator
Okay, but even if it were only for the past three years, you should see a pattern and you should just come with it. All I'm saying is the lack of effort is being.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
I'm sorry, I don't mean to be argumented, but I would. This is the first time in three years that we've taken questions on this area. I'm not saying we can't provide information or we won't. Let's, let's have that conversation. And what is actually needed to help inform decisions? It is a large amount of money.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
It's for things like conducting trainings, investigations, doing repair maintenance at schools.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
That would be fine if it were on the reports. Yes, right. We're not questioning that. We want, we don't know that it's for that because it's not there.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
But again, if there's areas in which you think is too minute or is taking up too much time, then why don't you call the budget people and say, hey, this is the problem we're having. Do you still want us to give you all the per diem? Because that is coming up to 200 pages worth.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Okay, because only 18 pages is whatever. And let, let us make that decision. But you do this for three years. And I asked budget, I said, did they do this last year too? Because for some reason I must have been asleep at the wheel because I didn't see this.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
If I seen this, I would have, I would have made a, a comment about this because that's not acceptable. You know, and again, we're not telling you to go do this, this mindless kind of filling in. If it doesn't, it doesn't have some meaning to it.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
You could give us a lump sum and say per diem amounted to this amount of money. But here's the pages that you probably want to know.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
The reason the report's so long is because the fields we filled out, the fields that we could readily fill out and program ID was one of them. BNF sub Org. And we have a lot of sub orgs in each of our EDNs or ways that we shred out our budget.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
And that's sort of why there's so many rows in there. So I apologize for that. But we captured start date, end date, and total cost of the project.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
But that, I mean, that was part of what was asked for was the cost of the trip, and that's an associated cost of the trip.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
You could have gave it to us in a lump sum, say, okay, you should know.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
He has a wazoo shirt to flat thickens. Okay, so I want to, I want to go to more specific.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Okay, so we, I asked for your report on the agriculture chips that was made between November 2020 to an October 17, 2025. So you had a total of 15 trips in this period of time. 14 of those trips were to South Korea.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
So in 2023, you had three trips to South Korea with 46 travelers for a cost of $177,551. In 2024, you had eight trips to South Korea, which is pretty much more than one every other month. 138 travelers for a cost of $581,424. And in 2025, you had another three trips to the same South Korea.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
39 travelers for $140,908. This totals to almost a million dollars worth of travel. And we looked at the justification and you listed a bunch of things. But basically the last line, you've said schools have also been exploring food product development using what they have been growing.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
So can you give me the list of all of these schools that attended these trips and what are they growing and what are they using? Because the outcomes to me is questionable. The number of people that attended from each school. I'm not sure that that this, that a million dollars worth of this kind of travel is warranted.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Yes, some of it is. I mean, but come on, in three years you had this kind of cost. Where did this money come from to pay for these trips?
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
I believe chair. It was a combination of. I believe it was sf. Some was extra funded funds and some may have been also school level funds.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Okay, Esther. Funds that you felt you have to spend. That's why you guys went and made this trip.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Well, actually we. The AG Tech focus and overall focus for just helping us, helping our folks. And these trips were all statewide different schools.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Right. That attended. We have the list, gave the Members the list.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Thank you. Of all of this and Korea's AG Tech. And it was to Korea. Korea is recognized actually from what I learned is one of the global leaders in innovation.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Okay, you don't have to justify that. I want to justify the number of schools, the number of trips that you had to take, the number of people that you took for this, this one project and I don't know how many other projects like this that you have, but that's, that's a concern.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
This, this school's going to Korea was for a little sharing for agriculture, technology, but also to look at the innovation that's happening in Korea as they have rebounded. And I won't go into that because you want me to do that, but what's the outcome?
- Donna Kim
Legislator
How many of these schools actually give us a report? How many of these schools actually implemented these stuff in doing it? Because the one school in Kalihi that had anything close to ag, anything close to AG was Kaiwai, which you guys shut the program down, and they didn't even go on this trip.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
So, I mean, you know, it concerns me that these kinds of stuff is happening because I don't see all the egg going on in some of my schools that went here that they're growing anything or they've done anything.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
And maybe I'm wrong, but certainly I would like to know that the other concern I have is that the numbers that you guys give don't add up. Okay, so I'll give you a good example. So on the trip to. On March 24th, 29th, South Korea, you had 20 travelers. And you folks said that approximately cost was $61,650.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
I calculated, based on what you said, $150, $1,500 per traveler for ground transportation, lunch, dinner was $50-1,500. Airfare, $3,083. Is that coach that sounds.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Okay, because the economy here fluctuates from a $1,600 to$ 4,000 dollars. That was my thing. And then you have the lodging. Then you have common travel expenses, which you guys don't. Don't delineate per diem baggage fees.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
But just by multiplying 20 travelers times the $1,500 per traveler, times the airfare, times the lodging, I come up with $100,000, and you guys gave me $61,000.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Now, I don't know what you didn't include or added, but then I added the per diem, because my understanding that all of these travelers got per diem, and the only part of the per diem they paid was the hotel and all the food and meals that were included. But according to the contract, they get to keep that.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
So we added another $6,000 in this case for the meals, for those $60 that they get for per diem per day. But you guys don't even tell me that. But it comes out to 100. And this is not the only trip. Almost every trip, it was over. Over what you folks.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
So I don't know who's adding and subtracting and multiplying on this.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
I'll touch bases with the folks who put this together and get back to you.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
So the trips were coordinated through the each of the area superintendents and working together with their principals.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
But, but, but I also say Senator, that for Internet, in the process that we have for approving travel, principals put their request into complex air superintendents and the complex air superintendents for international travel is, has to be signed off by me, by the, by the superintendent. So the, the final authority on any of these travels is.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Doesn't it look like a boondoggle for all of these trips, all of these schools, all of these board Member, whatever. I think education specialist, complex academic officer.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
No, I do know some of the things, the, the outcomes for some of the schools and I know Senator Dela Cruz is already aware like Lelua Minilani, Wailua complex area, they are doing different kinds of methods of farming, traditional environment, aquaculture, value added on top of what they've gained from, from his experiences, value added, product development and so forth.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
When in talking to the schools, some of what they learned was from their trips to Korea.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
But you don't have to send that many per school. I mean, come on, we have a, you have a budget. We're austere times. And it's like trip after trip, like one month between each one.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
I think for the folks who attended from the schools and from the complex areas that attended, it's important that when we go and this is my, my thinking is that when folks go and they do travel, it's important to have more than one person go because when they come back, there's definitely opportunity for folks to start talking about what they saw, what the next steps are as, as a team to kind of come up with where they're going to be going next.
- Lynn DeCoite
Legislator
And I know, yeah, but this one. School get four complex area guys that went. I would be more impressed if I saw an AG teacher that went. But four complex area and guys from one school.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
We did, we did have a number of CTE and AG teachers that attended to look at the ag and the innovation.
- Lynn DeCoite
Legislator
Is. You get the Kaimaki, McKinley, Roosevelt. You get four of this four complex areas that go. And you know what? I don't, I don't even see Maui in here. I don't see none of the trips of Maui, Big Island. I mean, I see it and then Lanai.
- Lynn DeCoite
Legislator
I mean, hey, what you get two vice principals on that, how many vice. I mean, it's like how many vice principles take for flip and switch? I mean, give me a break.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
If you're referring to the, the YK High School trip, those though the principals there has, the vice principals there have since moved on to Hilo High School and to Hilo Intermediate School and leading their schools. So the experiences that they had in going with the YC team now actually has spread to three of the secondary schools.
- Lynn DeCoite
Legislator
That what's the outcome where they are in innovation, in agriculture and so forth.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
And I think I can follow up with them and get that information to you in terms of what, what the next steps are happening has, has happened there a lot.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Yeah, so, so the, the Farrington we had 1,2,3,4,5 people from Farrington went, this is a March 2024. And of the five I know of, two have retired, two retired. I mean, so what was the benefit there? I mean, I'm just saying and just, just happen. I know that particular about my school. So.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
But again, these are, the whole purpose is to have certain key people go to these trips, get the information, bring it back and share it. Everybody cannot go. And I noticed one school students went, which was great, but what about the other schools? Their students didn't go.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
So again, the equity, the fact that you've got all these principals, vice principals.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
I think, Senator, to your question about individuals who retire, I'm not sure at the time of that they traveled. I'm not sure if anyone was aware of what their plans for retirement was.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
We're not talking like six years later, we're talking about one year later.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
But I think it's important for individuals who are going to retire that they share though, that, you know, maybe I shouldn't be going on this trip because I'm going to be retiring in a year. Maybe somebody else should be going. Whether that's been shared with, with.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
But isn't that part of your folks's review when you're approving this trip to say are these people the ones that are on the front line? Are these the ones that are going to be around for a long time? Are these the ones that, you know, really come in the classroom making a difference?
- Donna Kim
Legislator
But again, you, you, you arm people, groups of people that can come back and bring the information? They don't have to actually go there. Right. I mean, you have all kinds of ways of, of zoom, of, of seeing things right now. The AI can give you realistic views.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Of things in, in, in talking with the, some of the folks that attended, they did share though, that the value of them traveling there, actually talking to the folks there, being able to see what was value.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
And I've gone on this trip, we went on the Australia trip, but at the, at the end of the day, I didn't really have to go. It was great for me to go. I learned a lot. But at the end of the day, I didn't bring that back. I'm not growing anything. I'm not you.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
You know, what I'm saying is not everybody has to go. And it's just that it's not, it's. If it was your money, would you send all these people on your mini. On your dime? I mean, it's, you know, if we had a lot of money, that's one thing, but we don't. We're looking at positions.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
We're, we're, we're scrutinizing every position and then we get something like this, almost a million dollars worth of travel within 2-3 years.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Yeah. You know what probably would have helped, O', Brien, because going back to the form, because it, there is a column in there that says cost paid by state or other entity. So that its would have probably helped clear up quite a bit because if it's Esser funds, that's not the state, that's federal funds.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Well, no, it actually is in there. Cost by state or other entity. So you would write state or other.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
I'm sorry, I thought that was private money you were looking for.
- Michelle Kidani
Legislator
When you plan the trips and invite the teachers, I don't think you can ask them when they're retiring. That might be a violation of their contract. So just be careful. Thank you. Yeah. But I'm sure you may know or the principals may know that information.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
So can you guys re-do this report with the correct numbers? All of the numbers. And not just the numbers. If you're paying per diem, because if you're going to put per diem on this, on this sheet, then I don't know why you're not putting per diem on this sheet.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
So you give us the full, the full accurate of the cost and where the funds came from and who coordinated this. Somebody had to do all the planning and the trips and coordinating the schools and so forth. Right, right. To get it. So who did that?
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
We did work together with Design Thinking Hawaii. And they helped us to coordinate the trips and to set up so that.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Yes, again. So a consultant helped us put it all together. Okay, okay.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Okay. You know, just going back to the CIP lapses, though, what I don't want to happen is what happened was it a year and a half ago where we all found out almost from the media of the amount of projects that DOE had was lapsing. And so that became problematic because it caught everybody by surprise.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
And so I guess for us, you know, we asked for cip, we have to prioritize our ask, and then now we have to ask for the same CIP that we asked for the year before, which means you can't ask for anything new because you're trying to get what you guys left. So that. That's the only.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
That's where I think, you know, it does have an impact on us because if the district needs multiple things now, you got to ask for the same thing twice. So I don't know, hopefully we can resolve at least the backlog and kind of figure out if there's anything that's going to lapse. Okay.
- Lynn DeCoite
Legislator
I think the last time, remember I asked you guys when I said, you guys going to be handling the CIP, give us one memo that now CIP lands in doe. So that way, in this case, Senator, the court can say no as the memo. There's no, you know, difficulty in understanding who's making those CIP requests.
- Lynn DeCoite
Legislator
It's out of all hands. Saw you guys. But she has that memo, but I never got it.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Okay. It's evil 14, page 28 in the document, but it's page 57 for us.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Chair. What. What table was that? Table 14. 14. Thank you. It's 1234 the fourth from the bottom. There's a contract with the University of Hawaii that has a value of 7.8 million to develop and implement assessment in Hawaiian language for the Department.
- Elizabeth Higashi
Person
Okay, so I would have to look at the contract to be very specific, but generally speaking, this is a contract that started in 2021 and it goes until 2026. So this is a five year contract and the 7.8 is the ceiling on the contract. It's like a equivalent of purchase order. So it's up to 7.8.
- Elizabeth Higashi
Person
The DOE contracts with the university on our Hawaiian language, our assessments in Hawaiian language. So one of them is a set of assessments called Kael Kaiapuni Assessment of Educational Outcomes. It is the state equivalent to. Equivalent is not the right word.
- Elizabeth Higashi
Person
It is the state assessment given to our Kaioponi students in grades three to eight to meet our state assessment requirements. So we do Smarter Balanced assessment, which we showed here earlier for our English medium students. And then we have a different assessment that was developed in Hawaiian for our Kaiaponi students.
- Elizabeth Higashi
Person
So the university is the contract, the contractor that develops the test items and then manages the scoring and does the reporting.
- Elizabeth Higashi
Person
So we have a different contractor for that. We're part of the Smarter Balanced Assessment Consortium, but we have a contract with Cambium.
- Elizabeth Higashi
Person
The Administration of the assessments are contracted out. So we have folks in house that manages assessments as well. But there's a. We contract out the assessments. This is with the psychometricians and the. And the platforms because our tests are conducted online. There's all kinds of integrated reliability and like statistical stuff that happens with the contractors.
- Elizabeth Higashi
Person
So this one, this particular one is for our. And so how many students Immersion. We have a total of about. I think it's. I think we have. I was just looking at numbers today. There's over 2,000 students in our Kaiapuni programs. But we only test in grades three to eight for the KAIO assessment.
- Elizabeth Higashi
Person
This meets our federal requirement under Every Student Succeeds act for testing every student in the grades three to eight in English. Excuse me, in language arts and mathematics and science.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
What does it break down to? The 7 million breakdown into the 2000. Is it 2000? The ones that are assessed. What is. And this is.
- Elizabeth Higashi
Person
I. I'm going to have to do the math. So you can see here in this line that the outstanding balance is 5.7. So since 2021, we have so far only charged 2 million to the contract. So I can get back to you. I can't. I have.
- Elizabeth Higashi
Person
What I'm not familiar with just by looking at the numbers right now is how much of this was initially developing the test versus the ongoing Administration.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Can you guys give us a list of all the assessments that we contract that you contract out including the kindergarten assessment that you guys did and what the totals out to be? Because there seems to be quite a bit we can.
- Elizabeth Higashi
Person
There are assessments that are required by federal. Are federal. Meet federal requirements. Yeah, we can do that.
- Samantha DeCorte
Legislator
Okay, just right quick on the next page on the first line, $21 million to cambium assessment.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
So that company has several. Right. It has a couple lines before and line after.
- Samantha DeCorte
Legislator
I mean not necessarily that you have. To respond but I'm just pointing out how much again we're spending on these assessments.
- Elizabeth Higashi
Person
We have use. There's state funds and also federal funds that pay for the assessments.
- Samantha DeCorte
Legislator
You can provide further breakdown. Yeah and if you can let us. Know exactly how much state funds.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Okay, can we go to page 26 and 27. There's again this is to university to provide a pharmacy technician program at IA High School. And on the next page that was 26 and 27 to.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
26 and 27. So how many students are being served by this pharmacy? Is it. I assume it's an academy.
- Elizabeth Higashi
Person
So these are courses for students to earn industry certifications and these are non credit courses. So they don't fall under the early college agreement or early college funding. And Senator will have to get back to you on specifically how many students participated in each of these particular contracts.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Okay. What other health academy programs currently exist and what data shows the need for this new certification.
- Elizabeth Higashi
Person
So we have. Yeah. We can get back to you with specifics. But generally speaking many. Most of our schools have health academies. Health is. And health care workforce is a really big thing.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
But then now you're breaking it down to even more specific, more granular. Yeah, yeah. And so forth. And as we know the pharmacy school is on the big island and that enrollment is down. So I'm not sure that we can be all things to everybody. But you know how the costs.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
How does that break down on whether or not we're serving the majority of our students And I guess. Sure.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
May I share on the farm tech. I'm a little bit familiar with that.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
When back when I was Students get the certification but they also students who go through that course they were getting hired at places like CVS okay.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
I. I can think that I can just tell you the, the date that I was there. How many. But I can get. We'll get for you to statewide.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Okay. Again, we're looking at what we're spending and how many students we're actually benefiting by these programs here.
- Lorraine Inouye
Legislator
Just to add. So we're paying for their classes and they got hired as interns and I've met them. They got hired at CVS and they're getting paid. So are they certified?
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
It depends. But through the foreign tech class they do get a. You get a certification.
- Lorraine Inouye
Legislator
So I'm not sure exactly what the pharmacy school in Hilo that has been built by DKI and the, you know, as noted, the enrollment has been done. But. But now you're taking them out of the enrollment for future because they already is going to be working interns, getting paid later and get hired.
- Lorraine Inouye
Legislator
So are we in conflict with what our goals are supposed to be? You want to get this? I can.
- Elizabeth Higashi
Person
So pharmacy technicians are more entry level in the pharmacy as opposed to pharmacists. So the pharmacy technician training is shorter and people can get employed so often the people that wouldn't.
- Lorraine Inouye
Legislator
We encourage them if they're in high school, like as a senior, then encourage them to go to the pharmacy school and be a student.
- Elizabeth Higashi
Person
So yes. And one of the things that the university has is an opportunity for the pharmacy tech students or students who have earned core pharmacy techs to go on and move forward in the pharmacy pathway.
- Lorraine Inouye
Legislator
So I've met students at the campus in my district and I'll tell you, they were from Maui and there were some from Kauai and Oahu here on the west side.
- Lorraine Inouye
Legislator
And was so impressed even if the enrollment is down, but they're so impressed about being there in college setting and a pharmacy school that they didn't have to go to a large campus.
- Lorraine Inouye
Legislator
But just to add, I'm just supporting the DKI that when he decided he's going to do that is for our economic benefits, but also to make sure that cost of education is much cheaper. Thank you.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Okay, I had a question about contracts. Page 29 of 282123. Fifth from the bottom and it says 1,040,000 Max value. It's with College of Education. But the explanation was regular meetings to ensure coordination and scope of work.
- Elizabeth Higashi
Person
This is for College of Education to support our work with the After School Alliance. I'll ask Assistant superintendent Elizabeth Higashi. So how does this.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
So one of the things that it's not just calling meetings, but maybe we should have been more clear in regards to response on that section. My apologies, but After School alliance does help us with all of our after school programming in regards to our professional training, especially around some of our.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
For example, some of our A requires them to get their certification in order for our A after school employees in order for them to work.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
And so they help us a lot with the professional development, the training, in addition, coordination with a lot of our community organization just because, you know, it's a high area that a lot of times it's hard to staff. And so we really try to do is coordinate with a lot of our community organizations across the entire state.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Okay. Doesn't seem as, I guess as accurate as it could have been then.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
That's my fault. My apologies on that part. I should have done a better job in being clear in responding for that.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
And then the, there's two lines down, there's another one. Uh, 2,484,000 school based behavioral and mental health services. Same thing. It just says biannual annual report and monthly check ins.
- Kinau Gardner
Person
Okay, so that's the one with the University of Hawaii. Yeah, right. So the, the biennial annual report, that's how it's being monitored. But that is to train our clinical psychologists. So we have, we're supporting six doctoral psychology candidates and interns and some postdocs to work primarily with our very high end students.
- Kinau Gardner
Person
And so we're supporting them as they're going through that, their doctoral programs.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
But right above that line you have services to supplement recruitment of clinical psychologists with the Western Interstate Commission for Higher Education services to supplement recruitment. So we're recruiting, we're trying to recruit psychologists, is that what it is?
- Kinau Gardner
Person
Right. We, we are, we are constantly trying to find qualified personnel without having to contract that. So this, so what's the outcome?
- Donna Kim
Legislator
What was the outcomes? That one was only $700,000. But what's the outcomes? Did we get more. I mean again, we're getting companies to do the work, to do the recruitment. But what's the problem and what's the outcome?
- Donna Kim
Legislator
And if we don't have enough psychologists, then I don't care how many people contracts, you go out to recruit them because there's a shortage.
- Kinau Gardner
Person
So there's those two efforts. One is to support them as they, in a. I think this program is at Chaminade. And then the others is to. For the recruitment. I. I can give you more information about. About that specific one.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
I just hope that we're not getting into contracts again because people just don't want to do the work. They rather have some. Some other consultant do the work.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
I'm gonna go before page 28. Let me go back to page 28. Page 28 we have on the very top external evaluation of Department of Defense education activity. So what they we do an external. Who does the external evaluation? Ward research. Don't DoD do some reporting already? And that's not the only one. You have that one.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
You have another one. That one was 80,000. Another one for 60,000 external evaluation. Then one more below that. External evaluation Services. Department of Defense. Why are these external evaluators needed when DOE has an entire Department of Strategy Innovation and Performance which includes positions who have assessment and accountability section as well as Data governance and analysis section.
- Elizabeth Higashi
Person
I'm going to have. We would have to look specifically into each of these contracts and grants. But oftentimes federal grants have requirements for third party evaluation. Like I couldn't speak specifically to these expenditures. We'd have to look specifically at the grant.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
I can tell we do have an entire Department of Strategy Innovation Performance which includes positions for assessments and accountability. Yet we see here contract after contract for assessments for accountability and data governance. So. But you have a whole. Again, these are people that we hire, yet all they do is oversee these consultants.
- Elizabeth Higashi
Person
So our assessment and our evaluation specialists in our assessment and accountability branch serve a different function around our assessment and accountability. We do not currently have any positions in that office to do program specifically for program evaluation.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Okay, but you do have assessments accountability and analysis section, right?
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Page 29. So the overall questions for 45 and 6 recruitment contracts for external vendors. External. It's. I think I guess the question would be why are external services needed to re. For recruitment of employees?
- Donna Kim
Legislator
What line on page 29? Let me see. Which one? General assessment program. Professional services related to evaluation. External services for Department of Defense. Turn the fifth one down. Okay. Am I on the wrong page? Okay, but we. You have contracts and I'm specifically. I thought it was on page 29. I can ask needed for recruitment of employees.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Which one? But just General. Is that a General question or specific online?
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Well, it was specific, but I can't. I can't find the exact line but. And I think my staff will be come up with it.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Okay, here. While they look for that, let me just. What is the last contract on that page? The $22 million. For speech and Language Services, ET2, Physical Therapy.
- Kinau Gardner
Person
These are for contracted services. So in a. The need that we have in the Department goes beyond the school or the Department based employees that we have. So then we have to contract out services.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. We don't even have a lot of money on the table. Right.
- Kinau Gardner
Person
It's hard to say because it would depend on the student that's getting the service has to be Medicaid eligible. Okay, so maybe half, maybe 54%, but you could say half of it could be reimbursed, but it really would depend on the student that's receiving the service.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
But even if we spent more money to try to just get the system up so we can collect, we probably make more money that way. Spending it to get the system up sooner so we can collect versus continuing to pay these contracts and then wait till 2027.
- Kinau Gardner
Person
Yeah, we definitely want to get back to being able to claim. So we're working with MedQuest to be compliant with their requirements. Are we required to do physical therapy in the school? It may be part of a student's IEP to receive pt, OTPT and speech language therapy.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
So how much would it cost us to expedite this process so we can collect the reimbursements faster? Because then if you did a cost analysis of how much more we got to spend now so we can collect the money versus continuing to pay out all these contracts and not collect anything for one year.
- Kinau Gardner
Person
It's hard to say exactly. I think getting us to a point where we can be compliant is going to take time. We have to create a quality assurance plan to be compliant with.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
We don't have to work from scratch. If other states have already done it, why aren't we using some of the.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Services that they, that they use. So. Because they already have a consultant that might know how to do it.
- Kinau Gardner
Person
Yes, we're working with them. We're working with our contacts throughout the United States, but not just know how.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
To do it, but answering the questions and being able to describe the services and so forth and then being able to transmit it the way they want it transmitted. Correct. That's part.
- Kinau Gardner
Person
So that's been part of it. The issue is being able to electronically transmit that information in a compliant way to MedQuest satisfaction. Right. Because they're the ones through CMS and MedQuest.
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
So have you worked with MedQuest? What is your problem in compliance? Because MedQuest is a state agency, so how can you work with them?
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
So if it is computer program or it's, you know, not having the, the, the computers or whatever it is, identify what the problem is so you can correct it instead of just saying you're out of compliance. Right. So what is the problem?
- Kinau Gardner
Person
So as Deputy shared earlier, one of the issues is our electronic student information system. It does not. It's. It's old and it is in. We are in the process of updating it, acquiring a new one, but we're not there yet.
- Kinau Gardner
Person
But the old one has a challenging time in giving the kind of information in a way that MedQuest.
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
So you have, you have a contract, a contractor on board that's working on getting your computer system up to get the information from the students in the format that MedQuest needs.
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
Do you have a contract or somebody helping you with getting your computer system?
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
And that person is connecting with MedQuest because it is a DHS agency.
- Kinau Gardner
Person
So Med Quest and Medicaid eligible or compliant activities have to kind of talk to our Iep.
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
I understand that, but are you working with them to actually get that information so that you know how to correct the problem?
- Kinau Gardner
Person
Yes, we have been working with some providers and there's another office that's involved in that as well. To. And how long have you been working on this problem? When I started a year ago, there was, there was a. Not a contract.
- Kinau Gardner
Person
We haven't consummated, but we've been in the planning stages with a company with a contractor that hasn't been completed yet. So we are looking at. Do you have a contractor?
- Kinau Gardner
Person
So we're, we do have a contractor. We are running into some challenges and I'm not the expert in terms of the technology aspect of it, but we are. Who is helping you in your Department on getting this corrected? So there's several.
- Kinau Gardner
Person
But Assistant Superintendent Peckinpah, who is in charge of our Office of Information and Technology, her staff has been working with our staff to Finalize our contract or an information system. I think we're going to. I mean, we hope to have something rolled out in July of 2027, because.
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
This is $22 million and mounting that. It seems to me that this is urgent that you, you get a contract or you work with the CIO, the state, and with MedQuest and find out a way you can correct this problem and not sort of say, I'm waiting for the contractor to find a way.
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
We are. But what are you doing with the superintendent or with your IT people, Brian, you guys helping her so that it can be addressed?
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
I mean, is it worth us having a hearing with you guys, the CIO and Medquist from DHS so we can kind of just clear this up quickly?
- Kinau Gardner
Person
We, we are preparing to share more detailed information that we. That we have scheduled with Senator Kim. So we are preparing to share that.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Information, but she's talking about taking a course of action. So if we work with the MedQuest office locally, we work with the CIO because you need the. The technology software, because it seems like you guys have hit a wall.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Yeah. Thank you, Superintendent. Senator. So this is a very difficult system replacement that's been ongoing. Given that we are actually looking at a contingency plan to leverage the existing system to get there as well. So we're kind of parallel tracking to try to get back to billing as quick as possible.
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
So is the problem that you've got all of the data and you can't get it in the format and that it's that kind of problem versus there are other compliance problems that you have. I think we don't know what your problem is. It's hard for you to just kind of languish with not being able to get reimbursed.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Yeah. The issue is multifaceted. I don't know if it makes sense to have another session around it specifically. But with the legacy system, for example, we're only collecting service logs in larger increments than what's required in order to get to the billing. That's just one of the issues. So it's kind of multifaceted.
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
It's not clear whether you know what your problem is other than you have a problem.
- Kinau Gardner
Person
I mean we do have and have been meeting with Med Quest. We meet with them regularly. We were billing and then there was some new guidance from cms. We recognized that the way that we were able to give them information would be inappropriate. We might be over billing.
- Kinau Gardner
Person
So that's where we stopped so that we could get to a system that could report or give CMS information so that we could get reimbursed. Because we were getting reimbursed. So we have been able to identify the problem.
- Kinau Gardner
Person
One of the issues is that MedQuest does now require us to produce a quality assurance plan because before they'll allow us to claim again. So creating a quality assurance plan is pretty comprehensive and it'll take.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
How much did we collect in one year? What's the highest amount we collected in the past?
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
And it should be where. Because if we. If the 22 million you guys mentioned, we could probably collect 54% of that or 50%. That's 11.
- Kinau Gardner
Person
I mean based on our projections. And we think once we get to. Because we're doing direct service claiming some states are doing what's called free care so they can collect a lot of money. There is a potential to collect a lot of money. So we have to get.
- Kinau Gardner
Person
Well, if we're doing just direct service claiming potentially if we were doing for everything nursing, ABA, OT, PT, SLP, which. You are, which you.
- Kinau Gardner
Person
We're paying for. We. We provide those services and people are collecting for it. But if we get about 11.5 million is our projection. Right. But what we want to do is to get to free care. So then your potential and I don't know what that number is, but your potential to collect would be much higher.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
So the behavioral analysis contracts, you can't collect from for that.
- Kinau Gardner
Person
Not right now and but you could. So we have idea. Whatever a student needs, we provide. Right. A medical model requires a diagnosis from a doctor, a prescription for service, an annual and that has to be done annually. And in our current system, our educational model, we don't require a diagnosis, a written diagnosis from a physician.
- Kinau Gardner
Person
MedQuest is required. We have to adhere to a medical model. So we've been an education model. We have to pivot to a medical model. And that has been a recent development within the last year dhs, Med Quest providing us with guidance. I think it was in July of this year. So we are trying to align our practices.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Yeah. So. But. So you could end up getting reimbursed for at least some of the behavior analysis services. Because if you look at page 32 or our page 61, table 14, the entire page has contracts of 140 million. Each line is 140 million.
- Kinau Gardner
Person
Correct. But that's not the amount that we're paying. That's the ceiling. Right.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Yeah. But whatever we end up paying, you're saying some of that could potentially be reimbursed.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
There's 17 contracts for behavior health analysis. There's a huge. Nobody can do this.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
We're not. Well, it's the reimbursement component. Right. Because then it's more than just the 11 million you talked about. If we can end up getting reimbursed for some of this. Right.
- Kinau Gardner
Person
So we have been looking at. We've been doing nursing. Right. Our next. We're doing it incrementally, but we do have to do a comprehensive approach. But ABA is a huge cost to the Department. There's a huge need. And even with all of these contracts and the employees that we have, we still struggle to meet the.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
You know, I get that part. But that's different than trying to figure out how as quickly as possible, we can stand up something to get reimbursed. Yes. I mean, I think you're trying to make Apple. You're mixing apples and oranges by justifying the need.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
The question is, how do we get a system up in place much sooner so we can get reimbursed and get some of these monies back?
- Kinau Gardner
Person
So we'll provide. We can provide you with a timeline of when we hope to be able to get reimbursed. And we also want to get reimbursed sooner than later.
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
Would you tell us what. So in your report, the information, not just what their timeline would be, but what you've done and what the challenges are, the problems are and you've done about them so that we can see something more active than just reporting. Okay. We're going to plan to do it, you know, July or whatever. Right.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
I'm just wondering if you reach capacity and trying to figure this out, that we need help, we need hs, we need cio, we need other people, maybe potentially consultants, because even if we have to pay, we're going to get the money back quickly because we can get the reimbursements.
- Kinau Gardner
Person
We are. We did contract a contract. Very. A company that MedQuest had recommended they use this contractor as well. So we wouldn't be able to Stand up a quality assurance plan alone with our office. Our, our Medicaid reimbursement section is very small and so we recognize that. So we'll be contracting that portion.
- Kinau Gardner
Person
I, I think it, it could be, I have no idea what the cost might be because we would have to do an RFP for those. Wait, so, so you don't have a contract? We have a, to an RFP.
- Kinau Gardner
Person
We have a small contract, less than $25,000 with a company that is giving us doing a gap analysis and will then help us to understand what kind of quality, what we need in order to do a quality assurance plan.
- Kinau Gardner
Person
So they are looking at our special ed processes, they're looking at other things in the school system and collecting all of that information.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
But part of the problem is the vendors. The vendors are not reporting properly. Right. Some of the information and not giving the right information. Is that also part of the problem? So the vendors need to be educated as to what it is that we need that they need to send in or give you.
- Kinau Gardner
Person
Folks, I'm not aware of a problem with vendors, but in terms of overall documentation, that is another area that we will need to train the field in. Because one of the requirements in a medical model is a form of documentation that our providers have not had.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
But can't you, shouldn't you have been doing that already, educating them and making sure that they're reporting it correctly instead of waiting?
- Kinau Gardner
Person
I'm not aware people have not been reporting anything incorrectly.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
But we, you just said that we need to make sure that they know the information and all and so forth. So there's obviously problems here. There's problems, yes. Well, I'm just saying that we're going to take another year. When all this has been going on, why haven't we been multi pronging some.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Of this or at least going forward we're going to start burning the midnight oil to get this solved, man. Because if not, we're leaving a lot of money on the table. And we're talking about, you know, potentially the governor's proposal of freezing tax breaks. I mean, you guys still have needs. Gotta get this solved asap.
- Samantha DeCorte
Legislator
How are you folks assessing students? How are you diagnosing them as example? My coast holds, I believe majority of the SPED students on our coast. How are they being diagnosed?
- Kinau Gardner
Person
So for IDEA SPED services, we do not require a diagnosis so they become eligible. We do an evaluation, comprehensive evaluation. Initially there's cognitive evaluation, social tests. So we have a comprehensive evaluation that we Do. And then a team works to identify the eligibility category, and then we work on developing their plan.
- Kinau Gardner
Person
Teams that are at the campus. And there's also personnel at the complex level that can do the. That do the assessments.
- Samantha DeCorte
Legislator
Okay. Because. And do these assessors have clinical degrees? They have. What else? What are the requirements?
- Kinau Gardner
Person
So a speech language pathologist would. Would do the speech evaluation. A social worker may do a social history. A clinical psych, or a psychologist would do a cognitive. Oh, yeah.
- Samantha DeCorte
Legislator
And how long, typically, does it take to diagnose one student?
- Kinau Gardner
Person
There is a timeline, but I think it's within. We have to. From beginning to end. I think it's 60 days. Oh, labor.
- Samantha DeCorte
Legislator
So the reason that I bring up this concern is because I just want to ensure that if students are maybe a little bit more hyper than other students, that they're not being diagnosed as SPED students, and that there is, in fact, a process, because I do believe that Department does get extra funds. Right.
- Kinau Gardner
Person
We get. Yeah, we get money from the Federal Government, and we also have our own budget within the state.
- Samantha DeCorte
Legislator
Okay. I just want to. And maybe you folks can send me the actual process, because I. Again, when we put a label on these kids that they're SPED students that carries with them into adulthood.
- Samantha DeCorte
Legislator
And so I just want to make sure we're not psychologically labeling these kids to think that they have such a condition, that they need special requirements, attention, and then they carry that over. So if you don't mind, if you could send me over your assessment, what that looks like.
- Samantha DeCorte
Legislator
I just want to ensure that it's going through the proper channels. Okay, thank you.
- Lynn DeCoite
Legislator
Thank you. I just, like, go back to that reimbursement. So you guys have to come up where you just contracted somebody to help you guys meet the needs of what Medicaid is asking. I mean, med quest.
- Lynn DeCoite
Legislator
Is that the stop block? Because it seemed like that is the stop between you guys setting up the reimbursement. Is that. Is that the problem right there?
- Kinau Gardner
Person
I think. My. My understanding was we were thinking that we could use some of our current processes, the way we run schools, to be able to reimburse.
- Lynn DeCoite
Legislator
No, no, I get that, but I say, is that the stop block to expedite the processing of the reimbursement? Because you said earlier you guys have a contractor.
- Lynn DeCoite
Legislator
Can that contractor tell you how fast by putting all this stuff together so that you can do the because you got to erect the approval of Med Quest but you need that contractor to help you folks guess get whatever paper you need in line.
- Lynn DeCoite
Legislator
Long, how, how long would that take for that contractor to help you do that? I, I, I, they not giving you any idea. I mean because they already know what MedQuest needs. Right.
- Kinau Gardner
Person
We just recently executed that small contract shows once we start working with them they'll give us a timeline and I can share more information about how long they're estimating that to take.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
This is the one area of all areas. We would think you would be asking for more resources because you can you know it actually has with.
- Kinau Gardner
Person
So we, we have resources from the previous you know from the reimbursement. Looking at the contract for the quality assurance plan, I'm not positive on what it could be but I would imagine it would be like in the $250,000 range which I think we can cover with the, the budget that or the.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Funds that you guys can come up with a timeline. Much sooner though.
- Kinau Gardner
Person
How many staff do you have technology? We have about nine to 11 positions. In that and then focus on what do they do.
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
They're not looking at doing the compliance programmatically so that you can actually get closer to putting it all in the computer and getting in compliance with MedQuest.
- Kinau Gardner
Person
Previously they, they were working on the actual reimbursements that we were able to get. The administrative claimings and the random moment time studies, et cetera. But it is beyond our capacity. We will need to contract for additional support to get back to being reimbursed. Definitely. And, and we do want it expedited. You need help. Yeah.
- Heidi Armstrong
Person
And once we get that done, we're closer to being able to Bill for the services that we had previously billed while simultaneously then we train our field the other folks that we haven't been billing on the new process required by Medicaid so we can get back to what where we were if we can. And, and more.
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
So when you say you need the technology, have you been working on that?
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
Funds in there for the technology to do it. And when did that start?
- Heidi Armstrong
Person
Over a year ago. When it's been over a year and, and the status. That's what as Peckinpah. We Were working with the company always going well and then it hit a hitch and so that's where we are. So we're back to the drawing board.
- Lynn DeCoite
Legislator
You're not a contract. I'm not a contractor to help do the assurance assessment.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Yes, different components and different contractors for different.
- Lynn DeCoite
Legislator
Yeah, it'd be easy if you bring the guys together and then just try iron them out with them. I mean, you know, the CIOs and all and. Yeah, yeah, that's what the money. Still. We gotta get that.
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
Yeah, yeah, that should be on priority. How long has this program been in process? So like how long have you been operating in manually for that quest? Oh, you're new. But she just came on July.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
So Heidi, you know. Oh, go ahead. So the CAS is all report directly to you.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
So do you have a org chart of how many people in each case has office?
- Heidi Armstrong
Person
What's the formula that it ranges one. It ranges on the size of the complex area and it also ranges on. You'll notice some of our more rural complex areas have fewer staff. That's not by choice. That's by lack of available staff to support them. But I can send you the complex area org charts, their structures.
- Heidi Armstrong
Person
Gosh, off the top of my head, I couldn't tell you. But I can get you that information.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
120 working to make sure that they can get the reimbursement. No, no, not like we need 120. People working on this for everything in my office. Okay. And then student support service. No, Terry. Terry.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
How much man people managing things. Not necessarily all the worker base. But how many managers. Right.
- Kinau Gardner
Person
So I have four branches in my office and then they each have a Director and then. Then their subject matter experts and then support staff.
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
We have the org charts with the. Numbers, with the people with the numbers.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Oh. So we have in our office we. Have some teams at work. Like not large teams, but for English language arts and math. But there's other content areas where we still have like one specialist or who is responsible for the entire state. For example, our science specialists. So these folks are responsible for different. Programs and we are.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Oh, okay. I gotta just try find. So that was table 18. See, because you know, if you look at table 18. A1. Yeah.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
A1. So if you look at internal audit, it does report to office of superintendent. It's not. There's no direct line to board of Education.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
No, I know, but that's just not how it's reflected in your org chart. If you look at table or the link that you guys provided, page A1, Table 18. You see it, Tammy?
- Sean Bacon
Person
No, I'm looking. I have to double check on what we submitted. I'm looking at the plan of organization.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Yeah, yeah, that's 2024. That's the one. So second page has his signature. Right. Third page says Board of Education at the top.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
In terms of the Advisory Council for Adult Education. That's the dotted line.
- Sean Bacon
Person
If you go all the way down, there's internal audit is also a dotted line.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Oh, that's like in the coastline. It's so small you can't tell it's dotted. Sorry, it's a double edited. But why wouldn't it be dotted directly to or aligned directly to Board of Education? Because the line, the line is solid after that little section that. Two dots and then it's all solid all the way to superintendent.
- Sean Bacon
Person
I. I see also has a parenthesis that says administrative. So equivalent to the teacher Standards Board, Executive office on Early Learning. That also is dotted line off of the solid line.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Okay, you guys. Yeah, that. That's unclear. So. Okay, maybe you should just clean that up. Because if internal audit reports directly to the board, then there should be a line to.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Yeah. Similar to the Advisory Council for Adult Community Education.
- Sean Bacon
Person
Assistant Superintendent Sean Bacon is going to talk to this. We talked about it in our reorganization discussions. I just don't remember the detail.
- Sean Bacon
Person
I believe the reason for the dotted line is. Is because the Board of education is all volunteers. They are not. There is no actual salaried employee that is in charge of the board. So that, that is why it's, you know, it's. It's a dotted line. So that superintendent is the salaried employee.
- Sean Bacon
Person
That's the actual employee of the state. But then there is the dotted line there. Where is there? There is that.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Okay, that's fine. It's just that when you're looking at organization that's not necessarily as accurate.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
We'll take a look about how this is presented and. And come back into. Oh yeah.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
I mean it has. I'm not sure if how accurate this is on the CAS's and everything. So does this. Does this reflect everything with a casus? Right.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Are you talking about the org chart? Yeah, for the complex areas? Yeah, we have org charts that were. Sean, can you just confirm that the plan of or you're looking at is. The most current 17125 in the bottom, right? Yeah. Is there 7125 in the bottom right corner of what you're looking at?
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Is that it? Yeah, yeah. Okay, this one, you guys provided the link.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Yeah. So that would be current as of 6. It's a snapshot as of 6/30/2025. There is work we are doing with the complex areas and state offices around organizational realignment and so that complex areas are an area we're looking in the next year to do some reorgs.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Okay. Because clean up the org charts. Going back to the contracts on behavioral health, but yet a lot of the complexes have over 50. What is it? Oh .5. So there's. Each complex has behavior health specialists. Behavior specialists. I'm just not clear how the contracts and the amount of staff per complex end up interacting with.
- Heidi Armstrong
Person
But give you the org charts. And if we don't have org charts in that form, I think what you're asking for is for each complex area, what. What staff do they have? What are their roles and what are their functions? Correct.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Yeah, but you have. Yeah, I guess the way how it is now you put all the complexes together and then you kind of have a. You have them outlined, but depending on the. On the. I guess the type of position. So it's. Each position has a different org chart.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
So for instance, you have one for behavior specialists, clinical, all of that. Then you have a similar org chart with just, you know, physical therapists and occupational therapists. And so it's like. It's not that it's redundant, but you just have it over. What I was trying to figure out is one complex. What's in all of them.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Versus having to look at every single one based on a position type.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's fine. Because the way how you have it now is I see Farrington, Kaiser, Kamuki, Kalani, Roosevelt, and in this chart, it just shows, you know, physical therapist, Occupational Therapist, 12 month versus seeing everything that Farrington complex says or everything that Kaiser complex says.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
If not, I have to kind of add it up myself, going through each.
- Heidi Armstrong
Person
Would it be helpful if we sent you a list for each complex and this complex area and the staffing that.
- Donovan Dela Cruz
Legislator
Yeah, please. Because you have it. I guess you do have it. It's just that I would have to add them all up one page at a time.
- Donna Kim
Legislator
A little research. In 2016, Hawaii got $260,000. Where other similar states got 26 to 38 million dollars. And this is in reimbursements. So just to put it into perspective, and again, that information, some article that we will print out and send to your offices.
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
I have just one question. You have so many contracts, and it's in different divisions. Do you have a policy so that there's an evaluation of the performance of contractors that you have on board? Who does that? And does each division have something?
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
So there's accountability of the contractors because they're some big contracts and you don't know what the results are. But I think it would be helpful to know that. I don't know if you do it. Do you do it?
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
At this time, it is the responsibility of each contracting manager and the assistant superintendent who signs off on it to evaluate the efficacy of their contract. We have discussed some other procedures to take a look.
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
It would be good because we're looking at performance. And so if you look at the contract and. And it's not giving you the outcomes that you need for that division or office, it's really important because again, we're looking for funds so that we can, in fact, not take tax cuts to the public.
- Sharon Moriwaki
Legislator
We need to know that we're being more efficient and effective in when you contract out, especially the big sums.
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Previous bill discussion: January 16, 2026