Senate Standing Committee on Hawaiian Affairs

Good afternoon. We are convening this joint public safety and military affairs committee with Hawaiian affairs committee to review some of the

recommendations of the Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation's, breaking cycles report overview from the University of Hawaii Community Design Center, and then hearing from, Department of Accounting and General Services as well as Department of Corrections, in responding to many of the questions that we posed in the agenda. And we very much appreciate everyone's willingness to reschedule. We are not quite out of the woods yet with stormy weather, but hopeful that the weather will clear up sometime very, very soon.

So with me is Hawaiian Affairs committee Chair, Senator Richards. Do you have any opening remarks?

I appreciate appreciate the conversation we discussed with Senator Fukunaga about coming together and trying to see a way forward for this. And the unfortunately, the Hawaiian population is disproportionately represented in the corruption's facility. So excited to see what you have.

Okay. Thank you so much. We also are looking at ways that we can build upon the recommendations of this creating better outcomes, safer communities report from the, task force that was convened back in 2018. And I believe some of our predecessors, among the House and Senate, public safety chairs had basically laid the groundwork for a lot of what has been happening over the last several years.

And so it seems like, a very appropriate time for us to take a look at the study that was commissioned, by Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation with the University of Hawaii and seeing how we can in fact reduce the levels of incarceration in moving towards rehabilitation and reentry as well as building on a lot of the, native Hawaiian values and principles that were outlined in the study.

So with that, I'm gonna invite, Director Johnson and his team to, open the discussion.

Hey. Good afternoon, Chairs. I'm Tommy Johnson, Director of Department of Correction and Rehabilitation. First, I wanna thank you for scheduling this informational briefing. I think it is important.

I think you will be enlightened by the information I provided. I'm here today with some some of my key staff, deputy director for administration, Melanie Munoz, and our CIP coordination staff, Comptroller Keith Regan is here as well as well as his public works administrator, Gordon Wood, and then DAGS's consultant, Chris Kinamaka. And last but not least, of course, we have Kathy Hoshar from the University of Hawaii's Community Design Center, which we'll refer to moving forward as a UHCDC.

As you know, DCR hired UHCDC because we wanted to cast the widest net possible with outreach efforts to ensure no stone was left unturned and receive the most comprehensive objective report and unbiased recommendations possible. That's why we chose UHCDC because they had no skin in the game, they came with fresh eyes, and they came with the expertise that we needed to do the research.

We were confident that UHCDC would do a good job, but they far exceeded even our own expectations. As a result of their outreach efforts, which were very well received and much appreciated by those who participated in the many engagement events, such as the 120 talk story sessions, the 18 site visits and listening workshops, the three symposiums, three exhibits, six codesign workshops, five community practice meetings, etcetera. The breaking barriers report was developed extensively reviewed and discussed prior to its publishing.

This report is being used by DCR, DAGS, and our consultants in the planning and design of the new o triple c and will be used in updating our master plan, which was last updated in 2003, which is over twenty years ago. DCR will incorporate the system wide recommended changes moving forward in the planning and design of new facilities with the understanding that some recommendations may be applicable to jails, while others are applicable to prisons because they're two different environments and two different categories of offenders.

Also, where possible, DCI will incorporate applicable recommendations in our current facilities. We have requested funding from the legislature to begin the master plan review process and updating. I wanna thank you again and for scheduling this briefing. And now I'd like to introduce Cathy Hochar from UHCDC to provide her presentation.

Thank you.

I'll be here for questions. Thank you.

How do I advance this one?

I'll you'll do it? Okay. Alright. Aloha senators, Chairs. Thank you for allowing the University of Hawaii Community Design Center to provide a brief summary of the report that we submitted to DCR in 2025.

My name is Kathy Hochar, and I'm one of three principal investigators, including doctor Dan Mills from the Department of Urban and Regional Planning and the Matsunaga Institute for Peace and doctor Lorinda Riley from the Office of Public Health Studies and the School of Harabedian Knowledge, who collectively led our team of staff and students, that spanned architecture, planning, peace studies, public health, social work, Hawaiian studies, and law, at the University of Hawaii at Manoa. So next slide.

In 2022, we were contracted by DCR to engage the community and stakeholders to explore alternative models for a new facility to replace l Triple C. But in parallel, we also engaged the community around the development of a community based continuum of care to address root causes of incarceration and to reduce the jail population. So our project deliberately focused on both the broader system planning issues and the facility because of the relationships between the two.

So our work here, shown in yellow, was developed independently from the professional master planning and programming team led by DAGS and their consultant AHL. And this allowed us to engage and develop a community vision without any bias or obligation to previous planning and design work. Next slide. So these were our goals, which extend far beyond just design and planning.

It was to engage diverse stakeholders, research restorative justice models, consult with the facilities, share knowledge, and develop proof of concept designs, and to draft a guideline document to inform future work.

Next slide. Part of what prompted our partnership with DCR was the call from the community to, engage engage them about the planning and design of a new jail. And to respond to that, as Tommy mentioned, we conducted a 120 talk stories. Oh, the next slide. 18 site visits, which included 16 listening workshops, three public symposiums, three pop up exhibits, six codesign workshops, and five community of practice meetings.

The 120 talk stories allowed us to better understand the perspective of a diverse array of agencies, organizations, care providers, health practitioners, victims' organizations, elected officials, advocates, and community members.

Go ahead.

No. No.

No. Next slide. Yeah. And we also met people where they were. So our our team engaged individuals and care providers in treatment and reentry facilities, in cultural and health centers, churches and correctional facilities, and this allowed us to speak directly with justice impacted individuals and their support network.

Next slide. Our first round of engagement revealed a shared desire to bring stakeholders together to break down silos across health, housing, and justice systems, so not just within corrections, to address problems at that systems level. And as a result, we hosted with DCR and partners from the Hawaii Correctional Oversight Commission, the Correctional Reform Working Group, the Community Alliance on Prisons, the governor's office, and YWCA as our hosts.

We hosted a two day breaking cycle symposium that invited, 40 speakers from Hawaii, The US, and Norway, to share approaches to breaking cycles of substance abuse, mental health need, houselessness, joblessness, treatment, and incarceration. And we we hosted another two additional smaller symposiums to extend this public conversation about breaking cycles, one at the State Capitol focused on diversion and reentry and another focused on design.

Next slide. We also conducted neighborhood workshops and intended neighborhood Board Meetings to understand the perspectives of the Aya and Halawa community, and to offer them opportunities to provide feedback in small groups and through engagement stations. So more more hands on, conversation with them. Next slide. We also engaged individuals incarcerated in our system twice to ask them what they thought they needed for successful rehabilitation and reintegration, to their families and communities.

These are the collages that they presented back to us, and their sentiments centered on family, culture, and opportunities for change. But, again, this was done in a prison, not in a jail, so the sentiments are are are general, not necessarily specific to a jail. Toward the end of our project, next slide, we convened a monthly community of practice meetings to provide progress updates on our work, to gather feedback, and to honor the relationships that were developed through this this process.

The findings from all of these engagement activities were synthesized into a design framework, which is shown on the next slide. On the left on the left, the individual is represented as the Kai Koi Kalo, which exclusively grew in Halawa.

And, of course, these concepts were developed with Kupuna, with the community members that we spoke to. The drawing shows the critical components and relationships for health and growth. Right next are the design principles and design considerations that reflected the community's design aspirations. The community wanted a a holistic health centered trauma informed approach. They also wanted the design to focus on relationships, pilina, connections to Aina, culture and identity, safety, personal strengths, education, respect, and dignity.

And then the design considerations further on the right are a little bit more technical. Those focused on programming, site design, staff spaces, housing modules, and transition housing. And that is more related to the physical design of the facility. Next slide. We also visualized, design elements that were described to us by the community.

These are elements on their wish lists. It fell into nine categories, Malama Aina, spiritual reconnection, Keiki to Kupuna, ritual and practice, making and Makana, art and music, sustainability and resilience, learning and working, and restorative landscapes. And in general, these weren't big ticket items. They were simple elements like Lo'i or native medicinal gardens, murals, flexible classrooms, workshop space, maybe an ahu, Hale building areas, kid friendly visitation spaces, and and walking paths, and things that support wellness for both the staff and those in custody.

The community saw some of these elements supported by community partners.

For example, they could be supported by collaborations with nearby cultural organizations, or the art could be a collaboration with the State Foundation for Culture and the Arts. Understanding that jail stays are very short, these elements would be a way of connecting individuals to partners that could continue to support the individual beyond the release. Right? The jail becomes a place where the individuals are connected to a continuum of support. It's a catalyst for a long term rehabilitation rather than the place where that rehabilitation is fully realized.

And all of this informed three proof of concept approaches. Next slide. I wanna reiterate that these were community visions. We did codesign workshops, hands on things that allowed them to tell us and show us, what they were thinking. These are not designs that incorporate all the technical, regulatory, and financial requirements, for the actual project.

Our team didn't have the technical expertise of AHL, HOK, and the rest of the team working with DAGS, but this is what the, you know, the community's aspirations, looked like. The first approach was a step up campus where individuals progress from the bottom of the site to the top where the environments offered graduated freedom and responsibility to individuals as they prepare for release. This reflects that kind of educational campus model.

The second, was a community resilience center in intended to focus on social environmental sustainability and resilience. So this is more like a maybe a hospital campus model, a little bit more centralized.

And then the third was a community resource hub or village with a courtroom, diversion services, intake, assessment, reentry services that would support individuals, and their families both in and out of the jail. And this is, this would be more of a civic center model. So these are just models that were that were communicated to us. All of the approaches incorporated open green space, INA based activities for both staff and detaining well-being.

It also considered light air and views of nature, which have been proven to reduce stress and improve health outcomes.

So overall, they embody spaces for rehabilitation rather than punishment. And then next slide, I wanna end with the outcomes or key concepts in this report, that we're following up today. Again, this was this was submitted to DCR in early twenty twenty five, so it there's there's been a year in between. The concepts on the left are all system reform focused. So on on the left, this is where our work was much broader than than addressing just the planning and design of OCCC.

People insisted that this reform needed to happen concurrent to any planning of the new jail. The community was calling for a systems reform for a strategic statewide plan for diversion and reentry to address ways to reduce incarceration outside of corrections. Many felt that the State should lead this process, and called on State and city agencies and community partners to identify priorities, to agree to a plan, and to benchmark progress.

They also wanted, in general, to reframe corrections as a public health issue with more focus on addressing substance abuse and mental health issues that are the root causes of incarceration. The community preferred investments in prevention, especially family use teen and adolescent services to address, to address these issues far in advance of any crime or justice involvement.

The community also supported more diversion, and we learned at that time there was an emerging for circuit court diversion system, but that were still missingthere were still some gaps there, that they needed regular multi agency coordination, dedicated personnel assessment tools. It needed to be tied to crisis training, to mobile crisis units, crisis centers, and importantly long term residential treatment beds. There was no place for these individuals to go to beyond the crisis center. The community was also clear about its advocacy for community partnered reentry.

They wanted to see reentry in the community closer to family, jobs, and transportation, and they wanted to see more community partners involved to ensure warm handoffs, and a continuity of care.

The community supported moving the proposed transition center to the existing OCCC site in Kalihi and transforming it into a restorative care village with access to transit, housing, and jobs. The key concepts there on the right I realize this is not readable to anybody. Next slide, if you if you can get to it. For the facility, the first part was to gather more research to better align core needs with future programs.

Second, the community wanted a new mission, vision, values, and function of the new facility to just redefine what what this facility was.

They also called for a new identity. So similar to the renaming and repositioning of the department from public safety to corrections and rehabilitation, they wanted to see a new name to reflect a new model. And in the report, there is one possibility for for that. It was offered with the help and guidance from Kupuna from the Aiea community and with a Hawaiian language expert from Kamehameha Schools. They also wanted to start correctional cultural change now.

This wasn't something that needed to be in the far future. A new rehabilitative facility filled with staff with old punitive mindsets would not lead to success, so advocated for pilot programs to be initiated now with the understanding that cultural change is a long process. And most people were surprised and heartened by this unprecedented level of engagement from DCR, and they wanted to see community engagement continue in the form of an advisory group and more regular exchanges with the broader community.

The community was concerned about the proposed size and population for the new facility. They wanted to see more investment in diversion and reentry facilities and beds, but without these alternatives in place.

Right? Our report recommended designing for different scenarios demonstrating the ability to eliminate or convert parts of the project to noncorrectional uses as applicable. At that time, there was enthusiasm for brand new federal policies that would allow federally qualified health centers to provide service to individuals in and out of the jail, and this would allow federal subsidies to cover this care and reduce the financial burden on the State.

For example, a health center like Waimanalo Health Center could be co located within the facility and receive federal subsidies to provide care. And I I don't know if those policies were passed.

And finally, the community wanted to see the outcomes of the project, inform and impact the future, work on the new facility to bring the actual project closer to their vision. And I appreciate the opportunity to be here today to also learn about how the project developed after our part in it ended. So in closing, I wanna thank DCR and director Johnson for supporting this process of engagement for corrections. We were given full access and range of motion to conduct our engagement.

I also wanna recognize my university collaborators, Lorinda and Dan, Dean Osorio, Dean Camille Nelson, professor Sentel for their support and our collaborators with the Oversight Commission, Governor's Office, Correctional Reform Working Group, Community Alliance on Prisons, Prison Reform Hui, Makana Oke O'Kooa, Ke Olamamo, Hebalatach, I think, Loko Iapayau, Touch

have the materials only on one flash drive. So we're gonna copy that onto the laptop and use the flash drive to make copies of the materials for all attendees. And so we're gonna take a five minute break and then we'd like to kind of move to some q and a with Community Design Center and then move into the next presentation. But it's there's so much material that it's it's a little hard to follow if you don't have some form of material in front of you.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

We will go ahead and take a short break, and we will come back in a few minutes. Okay.

Good afternoon. We're gonna resume this afternoon's informational briefing and invite, I guess, UH Community Design Center, miss Shar, and any other members of the design team to come up and respond to some of the q and a on the presentation that you just kind of went over. And so be by the time that we complete that, I'm sure we should have additional copies of some of the materials for the other two presentations.

But very briefly, maybe to start, did your organization also conduct kind of an overview of a lot of different correctional facilities throughout The United States and perhaps in other locations to identify, you know, what kinds of, facilities are sort of leading the way or demonstrating great results throughout other parts of the country as you were getting started?

Yeah. Sure. We did we did a literature review both on the systems level. So larger justice systems reform, and that's where we were put in touch with people from Miami Dade. I know there was a state delegation that's visited Miami Dade in the past.

I think when in Orange County, we were connected with people in Los Angeles, and they have their alternatives to incarceration kind of program that has been moving forward. So we did study precedents at both a system scale and also a facilities design scale, and there were there were a number of case study precedents that are in in the report and that were presented out at one of our virtual symposiums.

One one of the one of the facilities was a Nashville facility that I think DCR and our our local consultants visited by HOK, which is on the project at this time that has an integrated jail and behavioral care center and then another one in Las Colinas. So we we did look, but we didn't do an extensive review. We didn't travel.

We didn't we didn't tour, but I think those are that's where AHL and and DAGs team has has probably more to offer as far as precedence there.

Okay. And then maybe before I hand off to some of the other members, how did you identify people from the community who could come forward with, you know, different ideas as to how that, you know, the the place represented a particular type of opportunity for different healing and rehabilitative practices. I know you talked a lot about that Kalo plant, you know, that grew in that area. And how did, you know, your design team find these people within the community?

Was it just through reaching out and then coming across a number of the people from that area who helped provide that kind of information?

Yeah. Sure. I mean, there's a number of ways that there's there's a dedicated community that has been supporting systems justice reform and been following the OCCC project for many, many years, you know, before our involvement. So we we connected to them. Some of them are in this room, and those people connected us to other people.

So, you know, we started we started with a kind of concentric ring of circles of people who were providing, services through our institutions, whether it was Department of Corrections or Department of Health, judiciary, parole, prosecutor's office, and then moved out to the care providers, the people in the community, and then to individuals and family members. And and we we kept the number open.

You know, we we needed to hear who we needed to speak to and then followed up on those recommendations to try to connect to the network of of people who could advise on this process on this project. So it was fairly improvisational and it was it was led by the people who shared their wisdom and knowledge and network with us.

K. Thank you. Any further questions?

Yep. Thanks, Chair. I think I know most of this answer, but just to clarify, you said you reach out to stakeholders. What's your definition of a stake specifically?

Specifically, I think.

And who? Not not names, but category of people.

I think anybody in this case, tied to the justice system, impacted by the justice system or supporting the system or providing care for those in and out of the system itself. So it was a pretty pretty broad definition. And and some of it wasn't defined by us. It was defined by the people who we spoke to who said, you would need to talk to x, y, or z.

Okay. And did I understand you talked to the community where the facility

Yes. Yeah. And we, of course, engaged the IEA and Halawa community.

I I would say, of course, because I don't think everyone actually engages with the community. So I commend you.

Oh, okay. No. And that that that's something that, you know, DAGS and AHL had they had been engaging the IAN Halawa community for many, many years, and they continue to do so. And I think our part was to extend that engagement beyond that neighborhood or that that geographic community and to reach out to the people interested in justice reform more broadly.

But I do wanna I do wanna return to, you know, your your question about precedents because I we did have one of our principal investigators, Lorinda Riley, did a literature review of over 2,000 articles to look at programs that were relevant and impactful relative to evidence based studies, and that that's in the report as well.

Okay. Thank you.

Did you talk to any inmates?

Yes. Yes. So so I wouldn't say lots. We went to we went to hold the Halawa Correctional Facility twice. Once we held a listening workshop with the support of a warden, and then we also went back twice in conjunction with a TriThink program.

So they have a evening educational program with the residents there, and we we tied our exercises to that that program. There's, I don't know, twenty, twenty five individuals, in that class and in the, with the word, and we spoke to about nine nine individuals, that that were currently incarcerated.

But in all of these other talk stories when we're in reentry facilities, substance abuse, you know, at Habitat, I think it was, like, 85 to 90% of those individuals were had been released from from jail or prison at some point. So both currently incarcerated individuals and people who had been released.

And I'm intrigued by the agricultural potential on the side, and Senator Fukunaga never talked about that. When I was in college, I went to school in Washington State, and they had a correctional farm. And so I think that that's something I would love to see incorporated. They had a dairy as well as farming, and that gave people skills that they otherwise never would have been exposed to, but it also was a way for them to help.

I guess they some of the food went into the the system, but it was more about just giving something to do.

So I'm real curious about that, especially when you start talking about the cultural side of it.

Yeah. I know that Washington program, again, that sustainability in prisons, not not a jail. I don't know what they do with their jail facilities there. But, yeah, they they have they have a lot of egg programs there. I think they have beekeeping, hydroponics, all kinds of things, and they have a tie in with Evergreen Community College too.

So there's the education and AG combined there.

Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

Further questions?

Well, thank you.

Okay. Thank you.

Thank you so much. If not, let's turn to the next presentation that we are, I guess, hearing from Department of Accounting and General Services, I believe, or and or Department of Corrections.

Before Christine Kinamaka begins, I'd like to go back one second to Senator Richards' question and what Cathy just responded to. We do have a farm operation at Weyalba Correctional Facility and a farm operation, particularly hyphen hyphenic operation at the Koolani Correctional Facility on the Big Island. And so those two, they do help feed with what they grow. Koolani provides food and fresh fruits and vegetables to the East C C C, and the WAI operation provides it to the Wahoo facilities.

And it helps us offset the cost of the purchase of foods and vegetables.

Thank you. Thank you. Yep. Yep.

Mahalo, Chair Richards and Chair Fukunaga, Vice Chair Lee. I'm Chris Kinimaka, special consultant, a special project manager consultant on behalf of the Department of County General Services, servicing the Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation. Mahalo for allowing us to share where we have gone on our journey and how we have moved forward with DCR to incorporate the new best management practices and even the new concepts culminating with the types of information like the break breaking cycles report.

What we have today is going back a little bit in history to give you more foundation on how far this project has come. I'll try to go through this quickly.

You'll have the handouts. You can go in detail on your own. We'll try to hit the really key points for you today. Next. So we just want to just re highlight again the difference between a jail versus a prison.

I'll go very quickly through their project history and then delve a little bit deeper into the goals and visions because that's where you start to see the transition from Department of Public Safety into DCR. Today, we'll talk about our accomplishments and our current activities as they feed into our progress forward. I really don't want to hit too much into the cost implications and project timeline because that's not our topic, but it will look at it and, you know, go very quickly through it.

You can carry that with you. Next.

So the difference between a jail and prison, as you heard from Kathy, really is the length of stay and the intent for the for the occupants there. So jails really are less than twelve months in incarceration. The average stay, what we're seeing at OCCC is really three weeks. So very short term there. It's really operated by local enforcement, in this case, DCR.

And the type of offense is really individuals who've just been arrested and are awaiting trial or have been sentenced for minor crimes with less than a year of incarceration. So your programs there tend to be aimed at helping individuals successfully reenter into society upon release. And that's different from prisons that the incarceration is over twelve months. And the average stay right now is several years. And in that we have jails, I mean, prisons that are operated by federal and state law enforcement.

In Hawaii, we do have both the DCR and the federal detention centers. Yeah. They can also be operated by private sector individuals, as we said in Arizona. The offenses there are individuals who have been sentenced for major crimes and there's because of their longer stay, their treatment can include a wider range of comprehensive programs due to that. Next.

Now for the history of OCCC, it's really just to show how we ended up with the facility that we have today and recognizing that the concept of a prison began in 1857 in Bevilay and moved to Kalihi in 1916. It became a combined jail and prison in 1975. And finally in 1987 became a standalone jail when the new Halawa Correctional Facility opened and the felons could be transferred to that facility.

Sadly, not more than eleven years later, though, our master plan research into all of DCR's facilities revealed that we really needed to replace the old OCCC that was reinforced again five years later in 2003 with another forensic master plan study on the facilities. Fortunately, eleven years later, the legislature did appropriate $5,000,000 for us to begin a planning effort in earnest to replace the facility.

And so that hard work began in 2016. We appreciate the continued support of the legislature and the administration over the following years to provide funding as we step through all of the critical steps. We'll take a look at that. Next. One of the things I know Director Johnson offered to you all is a tour of the current facility, and I really encourage everyone to do that.

It's eye opening. And from there, you'll see how the 1970s facilities and the punitive design back then really do not translate into what we're looking for today under, you know, having a good correctional rehabilitation facility. You'll see the obsolete design, not just in the layout, but in the actual physical structure of the buildings, the infrastructure of all of the support facilities and really just the environment itself.

You know, dilapidated, dark and narrow corridors, really not enough space to function and provide any services that we're looking at today. And that is why we really don't want to even renovate what's there.

It's just not feasible and with the money that you'd have to invest to do that and the land space does not really support what we're looking for. So next, under project goals and visions, we'll see that even from 2016 where we started our planning that DCR was already embracing many of the concepts that are best practices today in correctional facilities and you'll see a lot of it now also in the breaking cycles report. This is important to all of us.

The DCR has been reaching out studying all of these concepts as it did with the breaking cycles report. They turn around and guide us DAGS and our design team on what we should be looking at when we design the facilities.

So you'll see that we have we were told even back in 2016, they really want to embrace improving how individuals are housed and treated at OCCC and not just for those who are in custody, but also for the staff as well. That this includes adopting new technologies, better efficiencies, better management of space and optimizing costs, not just for first cost, but for operational costs as well. And so with that, we also looked at cultural values and how to really embrace what the community is looking for.

How do we get these individuals to transition into the community? And that's really bringing community concepts into the facility and providing the kinds of services that can make that transition much more smooth.

So the legislature last year appropriated $4,000,000 for us for that purpose for our reentry efforts.

And so some of those contracts are going out now, to improve our wraparound reentry services, in the way of housing, more substance community based substance abuse treatment, job development services for the for the, incarcerated population, partnering with the unions for apprenticeship programs that will pay the inmates initial, salary, not at the union wage, but better than they would in the facilities, provide the initial, safety equipment they need if the unions agree to train them and allow them to be members once they get done.

So a lot of that transition again into the type of rehabilitation rehabilitative facilities included recognizing racial equity, providing therapeutic rather than punitive types of facilities, promoting positive change with treatment programs, expanded mental and medical and mental health services and assistance and really looking at the ultimate goal of reducing recidivism. Next. So very quickly our first phase one really we started with a white sheet of paper. We went through with a population forecast at the time so we could understand how to size the facility.

But with these concepts, we already started public outreach and engagement with stakeholders and the community to understand what we were providing.

And we started to narrow down sites based on those concepts. So with that vision, we actually identified 12 alternative sites for Ochoppusi on Oahu. We studied them intensely. And with Governor Ige support, we did narrow down the selection to the current animal quarantine site in Halawa. Under that, we went and fleshed out all the detailed planning required for our final EIS, which was also accepted by governor Ige and moved into our master plan.

Again, incorporating all these concepts. We got through the plan review use application for zoning by the City Council, and work continues. Next.

Just ask a little bit.

Yeah.

Where is animal quarantine to go?

Okay. So the very next this slide is perfect for that answer. This is the current site for the animal quarantine station site in Halawa. The roadway bisecting the whole area is H 3. And the quarantine site includes everything to the West where you see the aqua colored buildings.

That's their administrative facilities, and also everything to the east, those areas in the red. So that is the 25 acre animal quarantine site. Most of the facility to the east is about a thousand kennels that they no longer need because now, you know, people don't have to quarantine their pets for torturous four months anymore. So most of that site now is being demolished. We're getting rid of the kennels.

What management facilities are there are going to be relocated to the West Side in its entirety so that the new OCCC at roughly 21.5 acres will take up the entire eastern portion past the H three.

Next.

As we mentioned, we did go through a population forecast to size the facilities. We do show a decline in the number of beds anticipated over time. And you can see by 2,032, total bed count based on the average daily population, peaking and classification is roughly 911 beds. Next.

If I might, the original plan called for a thousand bed facility at o triple c, but another 300 bed CTC community transition center. We took the recommendation of the UHCDC and took the 300 beds out of the o triple c plan at the Halawa site and then decide instead decided to, we wanna raise and redevelop the current LaMaca Work Furlough site to make it 240 beds and and make it more efficient by also including in there the intake service center operations that are now not consolidated.

That would make the operations more efficient. We also plan to rename the LaMaca work furlough center because we don't wanna use work furlough term. We're looking at the LaMaca community reintegrate reentry and reintegration center, And we're also we'll look at renaming new o triple c to something else as well.

We wanted to reflect our new mission, goals, and objectives. But more importantly, we want people to know that this is part of our core function is to successfully really get people back into the community, whether they're with us for fifteen days or fifteen years. Thank you.

And benefit to that too is it really supported our efforts to reach out to the community. The Aiea Halawa community was very uncomfortable with the idea of having transitional housing in their district. So relocating that back to Kalihi made sense. There is a Kalihi 21st century plan for the current OCCC site after relocation where Kalihi does embrace this type of program in their midst and they support having this type of soon to be relabeled not work

for me

in their area. So it really made sense for both communities to do that.

And it makes more sense because it's where the rail system is, where public transportation is, and the jobs are downtown.

Maybe, you know, in the assumptions that you relied upon in coming up with your population forecast, what were some of those assumptions? Because I'm sure while Kalihi may embrace, you know, having the same type of use of the o triple c site, I know the Halawa community was not necessarily embracing the idea of having both O triple c and the Halawa Correctional Facility within their neighborhood. So Yeah. What assumptions, drove the calculation for your population

counts? Before Chris answers that, if I might, we have gone to both an AEA neighborhood board and the associations for the last few years. And those both those boards both support having the old triple c there. They did have concerns about having a transition center, but they support having the new old triple c there.

There was no, opposition that we ran into once we explained the purpose, why we why that site was selected, how that site was selected, and the fact that, it is a jail, so it's very secure.

Well, I think the the neighborhood boards and the community meetings were based upon, you know, the the concept of o triple c relocation. Yes. But I think the the question about the size of the population would then translate into specific concerns that I have heard from that community, such as, for example, the fact that the location is relatively far from public transportation.

So there are, you know, a number of, concerns that I think a larger population size would, you know, raise some, different responses than just the notion of, you know, the jail plus the prison facility. It's it's kind of the actual implementation and what that will mean for the surrounding community.

Okay.

One of the issues we discussed was that when folks are released, they're not gonna be picked up by family members or by the program that they're going to. Then we, as DCR, would then transport them to the nearest bus depot, and we provide bus passes for them because they're being released. They're done with the sentence. And so that nearest bus depot, I believe, is about five miles away. So nobody's being released to walk around the street in that area.

That was one of the concerns the neighborhood board made clear to us.

Yes. I'm very familiar with Yeah. Who have told me that they've transported individuals who were trying to walk from point a to point b. So Yeah. I think the, you know, the size of the population is something that they would wanna have a more concrete set of expectations on.

Yeah. Right. It's good.

Can we just back up a little bit? In the initial, you were talking about the existing well, hang on. That was all triple c. Well, I'll ask the question anyway. A thousand beds and then predicting going down.

Yes.

Why? Well,

it it's my understanding. When they did the population projection, they did the projections based on a number of factors. One of the factors was the projected population of Hawaii during that particular year, and of that, what percentage, based on other factors, would be criminal justice involved in the system.

And it also looked at what laws were coming into effect that were on the books that had effective dates moving forward in the future, and some laws that were may have been already rescinded, but the rescinding date was in the future as well. So those are some of the factors they looked at in determining what the population of OCCC would be.

Okay. And then coming back to Halawa, what's the projection there? And what I'm where where the question is how many beds you have now, how many beds you project to need. If you're gonna build a new facility, what happens to the old facility?

For the OCCC, my recommendation to the governor was to raise OCCC, have a developer come in. It's 16.4 acres of prime land. To raise the facility, have developers come in and do mixed use, and then use the lease money from those lands to offset the cost of OCCC. Now it's his call in the end what what the governor will decide to do with that with that land.

But 16.4 acres right there in the urban corridor would be very attractive to a developer to come in, particularly if you can put affordable housing and mixed use structures on that site.

Okay. Because one of the things that we've talked about in the agriculture side is a biosecurity facility where we can do testing and things like that. And so that's some things we've discussed, but we can come back to that later. Okay.

So I think technically, officially, once o triple c relocates, the property reverts back to the Department of Land and Natural Resources. But certainly under the administration is where they would explore how they would redevelop that property. Yeah?

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's correct.

Okay. Alright. Next. Phase two again just continued all of our planning efforts design considerations that we had. We did new population forecast, which we'll continue to do to make sure we track what our sizing is for the facility.

But as we move forward with design, we're looking at flexibility in the modules themselves. We will look at a thousand beds roughly now as we showed with the different types of categories and uses. However, as we move forward, if that dynamic changes, we do have the ability to modify the modules to downscale if that occurs.

Yeah. So what we looked at is, I visited, Indiana and looked at three different types of construction. One was standard, you know, CMED Rebar Steel. That's your most expensive. That's also your takes a longer to build.

We look at modular type, where you would put in all the infrastructure you need upfront and then put the modules in as you needed them. If you put the infrastructure in upfront, you save tens of millions of dollars down the line because you're just putting the building on top of your water, sewer, and electrical infrastructure.

And another was the the other concept was the type of construction where everything is self contained, meaning you build a shell of the facility and then all of the cells are individual modules that are stacked on top of one another. That was that I looked at it that in Indiana. That is for really that segment of population that are your that would be, in disciplinary segregation or some other type of, housing, some other type of separated housing.

6,600 beds of the new facility would be a type of what we call indirect supervision housing where you would have, ACLs on the floor, two ACOs on the floor and one in the control tower manning the doors operating the doors from from above. That would reduce we projected, that would produce reduce the staffing cost for o triple c from the current complement is 412 ACOs to just under 300. I wanna make it clear.

If we're able to build o triple c and we're able to bring the staffing down, no one loses their job. We would take all those other positions and fill our vacancies and other Wahoo facilities, thus cutting down on our overtime costs across the board on the Wahoo.

So those are some of the efficiencies we're looking at in the new facility. Also, in the RFP, when it goes out, it would be written such that we could have different types of construction methods in the single facility that fits our needs at that time.

Okay. I think there's still a lot of questions around the size because, you know, I think granted, you you need to build for what you project.

But at the same time, if we're focusing on rehabilitation, you know, and looking at the design study, it almost seems as though the type of direction that the study points in is really a much different type of, campus or, set of surroundings and really utilizing the location in that Halawa Valley area for a lot more rehabilitation and restorative types of programs.

And that's where, you know, the size of the facility to me is almost like the cart before the horse, you know, because in many respects, we would envision if, you know, the design study plays a role in this, is really utilizing that location to provide both restorative as well as rehabilitative experiences that you may not have available in other locations. You know, that valley is very important in the Hawaiian culture.

Yes. I understand.

So it, you know, it just sort of seems that so far, all of this is talking about structures, but not really taking into account the location of that particular site.

Well, I think if you if you look at the information, I think I emailed to you guys today, and we also put, as part of our testimony in support of, Senate concurrent Resolution 89, we took two pages of the recommendations from the break in cycles report and incorporates incorporating them into the planning and design for the l triple c. So a lot of the Hawaiian cultural aspects, including the, Hawaiian vegetation and some other things.

And when Gordon comes up and he does his presentation, I'll stay here, and I can then speak to some of that as you look at some of the renderings of the facility.

Sure too that even when we were going through the environmental impact statement and going through site selection it wasn't just the bed count. It had a lot of the other qualitative features we had to look at too. So transportation, you know, centralized hub, which Halawa is closeness to programs and to downtown close to airports and any types of other transportation facilities that was all taken into account.

And one of the benefits we had from working with the communities very early on and very closely with was to understand their feel for really wanting to maintain that healing, that place of healing in Halawa Valley, which that is. And that has been embraced from the start.

And I think, you know, early on, we coined the phrase that this is a new Oahu community continuum of care facility. And that's really what we've looked at in all of the designs as well. So when we look at the bed count, you know, we have to be realistic as to what the potential number of beds would be because really DCR doesn't dictate how many people they have to incarcerate.

So So we had to be able to incorporate that need but also that's where we looked at flexibility and really recognizing yes, the green space in the valley, the peace and the quiet and the surrounding community. And I think you'll see that in our renderings as we continue to move forward.

Yeah. So next.

This is just a quick slide on our community outreach and engagement efforts as well for this team. So phase one in and of itself did have tremendous outreach with all of the different not only government entities, but stakeholders and no less than nine neighborhood boards, public interest groups and organizations. We are now on actually newsletter number 63 that we just released on April 9. We try to incorporate a lot of the informative background into those newsletters.

Talk about how we fit into the community and really what the philosophy is going on with not just OCCC, but, you know, statewide with DCR.

We do have our outreach history calendars. We have a dedicated website where people can interface and see what's going on every day, ask questions and connect with us. And we also do represent our team at the AIAA Neighborhood Board and the Aya Community Associations. Every single meeting since 2019. So we love Claire and we know her story about picking up folks there.

We are working over working on the community development plans as well. You know, what kind of benefits can we bring? And so we did hear early on about the concern about not having mass transit in that part of the valley. We started out saying, well, we'll work with the county and see if we can build roads to allow for busses in there. But now we have an even better solution where we're not going to just be releasing the people in custody straight onto the streets.

Yeah. We we also and you'll see in the we also included a a community multipurpose room in the new OCCC for the community to use for different things where they're not going into the facility itself. The access is on the front of the facility because we want to engage the community as much as possible. Yes. That may be the new location for the neighborhood Board Meetings.

Oh, I have attended many neighborhood Board Meetings in that region. Next slide, please.

We don't know.

We're now in phase three, and we're moving forward, getting ready, getting through conceptual design, moving into schematic design, again, incorporating all of these concepts. It was very timely for DCR to bring UHCDC on board. DAGS has worked a lot with, you know, UHCDC as well in other projects. So we really take to heart their efforts and are working very collaboratively to review what they've done and how we can move forward.

We are looking at now moving into, again, +the schematic design, but also getting ready for procurement.

So, again, more outreach on how we wanna work with the industry in general. We have been going to conferences with the American Correctional Association. Tommy, especially, and his team have been going to conferences and going out on briefings. We've also been viewing other facilities to see what works and what doesn't work. That's just as important.

Yeah.

So that we can bring those concepts in on how do you actually bring that into a facility in hardscape. And next, the next slide shows right now the conceptual plan for how we would revisit the Animal Quarantine Station site. As you see now, the Animal Quarantine Station would move completely to the west of H 3. There would be shared public parking under H 3 for both facilities.

And then you'll see the new OCCC focus on the Mackay end of the property, which allows us to create the big green space for not only for for evacuation, but also more importantly for recreational purposes.

You'll see that we don't have the big double wire or double fence with razor wire enveloping the entire site. The whole site is more open to the community, and you'll see as we move forward, like Tommy said, making parts of the facility available for the community as well.

And just ask, what's happening with the the former kennels there just the the gold.

They'll be demolished. Yeah. Oh, you mean the actual materials?

No. I mean, just the space not being incorporated as part of the planet here.

Oh, so the the kennels themselves are no longer necessary for AQS, and that's why they're willing to go ahead and consolidate their function on the Western property.

Yeah. Those guys. What I mean is in the schematic, you could, for example, have a ton more green space or some other uses with that portion

Oh. On the bottom.

Oh, down.

Oh, the bottom portion.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. The bottom curve, that actually is navy property. Yeah. And so we don't have full access to that. We had to set that aside for part of their secure requirements.

And so we were having to redo the whole site actually to what we have today. So again, good question, but not within our realm to utilize. We could actually pay for licensees at property, but I think it was something like $12,000,000

About 12,000,000. That's correct.

As a license, and that had to be renewed every few years. So that is off the table for us. Good question. Alright. Next.

So you'll see here some of our refined conceptual renderings. Again, these are still conceptual and being worked on. But what we look at now is utilization and embracing the the open space. You'll see the main entry on the left hand side. You can see open green glass now and that's a big yard area.

Even in the central area, you'll see how the facility embraces the respect, the esteem of civic center or civil buildings, but also the openness and the airiness of our good Hawaii type of designs utilizes a lot of sunlight, natural ventilation, and we're working towards really embracing the culture and the history of the area. Next.

And so when it so on this slide here and the and the one before What you don't see is barbwire. What you don't see are towers. The pavilion is not designed for that. It is designed to securely hold folks, but in a different manner than before. The vegetation you see in the front would be Hawaiian vegetation and plants.

And then if you notice the stone walls in the front, we purposely designed that to bring it closer to Hawaiian culture. There'll be some other, design things in the foyer, that we can discuss in a little bit when Gordy comes up to do his presentation. But we did we will partner with the Foundation of the Arts. But one of the other things we thought about doing is to work with the inmates and work with Chaz Williams from Worknet's Hawaii.

He puts on an inmate art presentation every year at Honolulu Hale.

And so we wanted to work with him and put the inmate art up in the foyer area of the facility and in different parts of the facility, and the inmates can benefit from the sale of the artwork.

Exactly. And we don't have it in this rendering at this time. But as Tommy said, even from the point where you park and people start to walk into the facility, it will have that feeling of warmth and healing and peace, and we look forward to bringing that too.

Some of these sculptures we thought about in working with the, Foundation of the Arts is, is that we wanna have specific Hawaiian artists, Hawaiian sculptures out front, and and it has to be a theme of healing and reintegration. And so we'll work with them at the appropriate time that for those types of artwork that we can lease from them or borrow from them.

Next slide, please. From this perspective, we get a better view of the glass areas above the entry, and that actually would be some of the yard open space for the people inside to utilize. So while we have double security now, it's part of the facility and not through Chainlink fencing and razor wire. It's built in. It's natural.

And we start to bring in again, natural ventilation and natural light. We make use of the Halawa Valley climate to really embrace the area. The rock at the rock faces on the lower portion, bring it down to human scale. That also embraces the idea of the hail, you know, the healing hail for the area.

In addition to that, the Hawaiian vegetation part of the plan is to is to train the detainees to maintain the grounds and to maintain the Hawaiian vegetation and to also to maintain the the facade facility as well. So by that, we're teaching them a marketable skill, but we're also giving them sweat equity into the same place that they stay. Go ahead.

Next. And then this is just a better close-up on the other open glass area, open field area. Again, now for staff and for the incarcerated as well. Next. And this is just the concept material board to really see show how we're considering what kinds of materials go into the facility with the vision glass not only secure but still bringing in light and enhancing the area. The fritted glass providing security as well but still again light and lightness to the area.

The precast panels right now envisioned to possibly include sculptural elements or patterns that embrace our culture and our history. The rec yard screen in the middle, that's a big area in the center, opening up light to all the floors of the facility. And the aluminum structure really just bringing part of that visual open airiness, the drawing your eyes upwards as we have in many of our very esteemed local civil civic facilities. And then again the lava rock.

Yeah. And

the next few slides really are just an example of the type of outreach that we've had. And, you know, on your leisure, please do take time to check out some of the articles that we've had, the work that we've done in trying to incorporate the best concepts to move forward. Next. And then this is just an example of the newsletter that we have. All of this is available on the DCR website as well.

And we can just flick through the next ones. These are all, again, just our outreach that we've done on PPS, going to the American Correctional Associations. We have a little slide in there also about this one. Thank you. The cost implications of project delay, and that's just really just to keep in mind that everything we've done, we again appreciate the support of legislature and administration to keep us moving forward.

Holding up the project is not gonna make it more affordable. The need still exists and so we appreciate the ability to continue to move forward on our efforts. Next. Some of the concepts we're looking at is how to best leverage the funding that we are given. We have been exploring public private partnerships in the procurement and we continue to study this as an option for procurement.

Next. And this is just a slide that discusses what that concept is, how we would use the first leverage of state funds to partner with a developer who would then also get their own private financing. And in this case, we're looking at creating this as a design, build, operate, finance, design, build, finance, operate and maintain facility. No, not an operate facility. State facility.

I'm sorry. I have so many projects in my head, but design, build, finance and maintain. And the reason we're talking about that as a concept is we want to encourage the innovation of the teams that do come in. So we're doing bridging documents that really lay down the brass tacks of what we essentially need. But we also introduce innovation so that the best practices come in from all of the teams around the world.

We want it to be financed because we don't believe we're gonna ever get funding to the tune of $1,000,000,000 to build the wood structure. And we also want the maintenance arm as well. That way, what they build is what they're going to also have to maintain after the fact. So they're more inclined and motivated to build a quality facility. There will be specifications on the level of maintenance and they hand back quality of the facility after a thirty year contract.

So that's what we're exploring and looking at moving forward with. Next.

So real quick, the the the the day to day maintenance of the facility, standard stuff will be done by our maintenance staff. The higher level skill to maintain a facility that we have no class of work for in the state is like the air conditioning, the some of the high the elevators, all those things.

Those are what the developer some of the major systems that they will be responsible to maintain in the facility and keep it up to par so that it should be the same from day it opens up to the day they turn it over to us. Thank you.

You know, I'm so sorry. We're running a little bit behind schedule. Could the two of you jump right into this set of questions, you know, that talked about how the PO project incorporates the breaking cycles concepts. I know that, you know, you've kind of given us a high level overview. But before we lose more, you know, individuals Right.

We did want to at least kind of cover some of this. And if we're not able to finish today, you know, we're we're looking at also perhaps continuing on Wednesday because we think that this is kind of an important time frame where, you know, in the face of a lot of the property damage and other issues that the state is facing, it's, you know, kind of an important time to see how this study is informing where you are going forward. Yeah. Very true. Thank you.

Okay. Thanks. Yes. And, actually, you can go to the next slide. Okay.

And you you asked us basically four questions in your your agenda. The first question was was about how the consultant services have have looked at the breaking cycles concepts. Okay. And Chris hit upon that quite quite a bit in her presentation. But the thing that I wanted to bring up here is that we all looked at the breaking cycles report.

DCR, DAGs, our consultants for a long time and over sort of iterative discussions and so forth, DCR then directed us as to which concepts we were to incorporate into this new jail. Okay, and so we are in the process of doing that. We're in the process of the concept design and moving into schematic design and so forth for the bridging documents that will be necessary to procure the project.

Okay, But that effort is ongoing and as I walk through my remarks here you'll see some things that that we haven't yet incorporated but we have every intention of incorporating. Okay?

Then you asked us you know what concepts have been incorporated? Okay? And so, thank you. Anticipating my every need. We, we have, increased the the, number and and type of education and health centered program spaces within the the the new jail.

Okay. And that's directly out out of the report.

So what we've done is, I'm gonna interrupt it real quick. Sorry. We've put program space on in every housing unit so that it cuts down on the movement, but also everything is right there that they need. We'll bring the food to them. We'll bring the programs to them, and a rec space there as well.

Go ahead.

Yes. And then we we do have some centralized medical and mental health treatment areas and those are designed to segregate people who may not get along with one another and so forth as they're undergoing treatment. Okay? We have green space in and around the the facility so that you can you can look out and and see green and so forth. And it's and it's something that then connects you to to nature, natural light, air, all those good things.

We're providing staff lounges on every floor because, you know, a detention and correctional facility is not necessarily an easy place to work, and you need to take a break from time to time. And so recognizing that, we are providing those sorts of spaces to to allow that to occur. And then we're also incorporating a lot of training rooms for different things cultural, religious, and so forth for the detainees. Next slide, please. We've also are incorporating a staff gym.

Okay. So the the staff themselves can can stay in shape and so forth. We have medical in in addition to the central medical, we also have medical treatment rooms in every housing module again to cut down on the amount of in facility traffic that that needs to go on.

As as you saw in the the the rendering set that Chris showed, we have these large areas of of glazing bringing in natural light and so forth to to the housing modules, and providing a dynamic great great views out there.

In addition to that, all of the color schemes we use inside the facility are all calming colors, even in the restrictive housing unit. One of the things the designers asked me was architects, did we wanna have darker colors? No. We want to have mood type colors. We wanna have open spaces, wide hallways, well lit rooms, and well lit cells for the cells we do have and the program space as well with murals in the program space and along the hallway.

K. And Tommy has talked about the the ACO stations and command centers, and we're designing those to to provide both passive and active security for for the facility all throughout. And then, something else is that we're providing personal storage for every detainee in each of the of the rooms in each of the cells. Right? We are currently also have under evaluation provision of additional recreational spaces that are directly connected with with nature.

And so, because we're trying to maximize the access to natural light and air here. So that you don't feel that you're always enclosed in the building. And then, of course, one of the things that the breaking cycles reports brings out is the need to continuously evaluate and review policies that are directed at operating the genome as well. And that's status

We we also think that by providing inmates with green spaces, not just outside the facility to maintain, but in the facility to maintain, they have sweat equity into it. And it also and with all the natural sunlight coming in, it will be a much better environment for them. Right.

Okay. Go ahead. Then you also asked what we haven't yet been able to adopt into into the design. And, of course, the correctional and justice reform will require some legislative action and so forth. And until that legislative action is taken we have to be able to house these people in in a facility that that is based under the current legislative regime.

K? But as that legislation occurs, we're designing this building to be flexible enough to change, to adopt, to adapt to those legislative changes as well. K? So that's something that that isn't really adopted here, but we're working in the flexibility for the adoption and future. Okay?

The report also talks about furniture and artwork. And while we're only in the conceptual and schematic design phases, we are looking at these things. But but, for example, the furnishings, it's a little early for us to be looking at the furnishings really. The artwork though, you can already see in the renderings that we're working in appropriate materials and cultural motifs

and all of that. And Tommy talked about displays for the inmates' art and all of that. And and so we are working those things in as we can. Some of these things are gonna take a little bit of time in the design process.

Well, I'm Good. Good. Kind of being very mindful of, you know, what our time frame is.

Yes. Right.

I think one of the things that, you know, we wanted to use this info on was to identify where the department and its consultants have utilized, the breaking studies I mean, breaking cycles study, but then also to what extent, both the design and consulting team have also gone back to community stakeholders as well as Native Hawaiian, practitioners and others with whom we're interested in seeing how the facilities, these new facilities, incorporate both rehabilitative programming and other kinds of spaces, in a way that helps us reduce the number of Native Hawaiians that are currently serving both as inmates or as well as detainees.

You know, the whole notion of the breaking cycles report seemed to emphasize the need to work with the surrounding community as well as those reform advocates, the oversight commission, and others. And I don't quite see where your efforts have brought them into the mix. So just be mindful about time today, and I apologize that we didn't have the materials prepared sooner.

I'm gonna ask if we can provide you with some of our written questions and ask you to return, we hope, not longer than an hour on Wednesday, the fifteenth.

So that's the thing that we really wanted to look to see that we might be able to address because in coming up with a new direction for rehabilitation and a restorative set of surroundings, it's kind of important that we see some evidence of continuing to work with both the community stakeholders as well as some of the native Hawaiian experts with whom we hope, you know, this facility is gonna be developed with. Because if anything, we wanna reduce the number of people who are incarcerated.

We wanna help them transition out into the community a lot sooner. And what you've covered is very extensive and, you know, very comprehensive. But the the key thing that we are very interested in seeing is how do we return people to their communities?

How do we have these facilities assist in that effort? And if anything, we would wanna have far less native Hawaiians, you know, remaining as our residents in the facility.

May I suggest you consider inviting doctor Michael Champion from the governor's office. He is in charge of the SIMS model for the state, and he is working with as DCR as the judiciary and prosecutors to look at that sequential intercept model. And 1 and 2, 0 and 1 would be the police prosecutors and where doctor Champion comes in. Two through five is where we come in after they are initially arraigned in court and then held over.

That's where DCR so I think those those diversion efforts is really is what's gonna reduce the jail and prison population and so will some of the deflection.

Where the jails come in, because they are with us for such a short amount of time, the amount of programming we can provide them meaningful meaningful programming will be very limited because they're only with us at thirty days. The longest person is with us up to a year.

In the prison system, they're with us for years, and that's where you're gonna really see the heavy programming provided in the prisons because someone may need to go to substance abuse treatment that may be twelve to fourteen months long. Sex offender treatment is eighteen months long. It takes time to get someone ready for GED and then to also take on post secondary educational classes.

Those are already done in a prison setting because they're there long enough. In a jail setting, they're not with us long enough for us to do a lot, but we will do whatever we can with that transient population.

Okay. Well, perhaps, you know, we we do wanna complete this as quickly as possible. So perhaps if we provide you with the additional questions in writing, and then you can kinda review and see how best to respond. We're happy to reach out to doctor Champion. I'm also gonna reach out to the Oversight Commission, which, you know, recently shared their March 2026, report Yeah.

Which talks about the availability of additional bed space that could be used for housing individuals who are eligible for minimum security type of opportunities. And we see that as something that may help us return many individuals to their communities, you know, in a more accelerated fashion. So we're gonna try and compress all of that, but we appreciate the amount of work and energy that has gone into your presentations today.

And we are, you know, committed to work towards really returning more people into their communities as soon as we can.

Oh, yeah. But just final comment, Chair. You know, we've talked a lot about facilities, but what Chair's pointing out is the if we don't have the programs to get people out of prison, back into community, that's where I'm really interested in it, whatever that means.

And so, yeah, we need the facilities, but if we don't have the programs that are actually getting people back in the community contributing to the society We can build all sorts of jails or prisons or whatever we call them, but we're not really doing what We built our interest is trying to get there. So very interested in that side.

Yes.

Okay. Well, thank you all for coming today. We will adjourn and, send you our questions and reconvene on Wednesday, April 15.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.