Simplifying Permitting for Enhanced Economic Development (SPEED) Task Force

Welcome, everyone to the Simplifying Permitting for Enhanced Economic Development Speed Task Force. Today is Thursday, September 11, 2025. It is 9:30am in Conference Room 325, with participation also available via Zoom. Thank you for your patience. We will begin with introductions, but first, our Members joining on Zoom.

Please state your name and let us know if anyone is with you. If not, simply say you are alone. We will start with Hawaii County.

Hi, my name is Aaron Spielman, architect, Deputy Building Chief. And I'm alone.

Good morning. Neil Tanaka, Planned Examinee Manager, County of Hawaii. Honored to be here and that I am alone today.

All right, let's move on to is? Denise, let's go with you. You are an individual representing new homeowners.

Yeah. Denise Nakanishi. I'm with Real Broker LLC and Team Nakanishi in Hilo.

Would you do us a favor and could you please turn on your video for the meeting?

Oh my God.

If you. Thank you. Perfect. And once we, once we figure out the quorum, you can actually, I'll make sure that you'll be the first one to turn off your video and you'll still be able to participate. Moving on to PUC. All right. We don't have Andrew here.

Oh, sorry, Rep., I'm here. Andrew Okabe, Hawaii Public Utilities Commission, one of the analysts assigned. I am, however, back up to Anand Samtani, who is our supervising economist. And we are here on behalf of Chair Leo Asuncion of the Chair of the Public Utilities Commission. Thank you.

Thank you, Andrew. Moving on to the Land Use Commission. All right, it looks like Brian.

Hi, Daniel Orodenker.

Daniel, would you do me a big favor and please turn on your video?

Sorry, it's not working.

All right, well, Dan is here and unfortunately, there are some technical difficulties. Moving on to our residential developer, HPM.

Good morning. Darryl Oliveira, Director of Risk Management, HPM. And I'm alone.

Thank you, Darrell. Moving on to Maui County.

Hi. Tom Cook, South Maui County Council Rep. And I'm in my hotel room on Big Island.

Enjoy the Big Island.

And I am alone.

Thank you.

Hi, good morning. Jordan Molina. I'm the Director with Public Works for the County of Maui, calling in from my office alone. Thank you.

I'm Lance Nakamura, Assistant Administrator for the Development Services Administration of Public Works, County of Maui. And I am alone.

Wade Shimabukuro, Public Works Development Services Administration Administrator. And I'm in my office alone.

Kristin Shimada, County of Maui, Chief Building Plans Examiner from my office. And I'm alone.

All right, we're going to move on to, we have AIA representing commercial developer. Is anyone here?

Yes, Morgan Gerdel, representing American Institute of Architects of Hawaii.

Thank you. We're currently just focusing on Zoom at the moment. We will go around in our physical space and introduce everybody here. This is to comply with Sunshine and make sure transparency is our priority. Moving on. So currently there's no one in Zoom representing AIA.

And is there anyone else who I have now called on Zoom that's in the task force?

Yes, Aaron Supple with the House Majority Staff Office on Zoom.

Thank you, Aaron. Is there anyone else? All right, now that we accounted everybody in Zoom, we are going to move on to here in our physical space. For everyone here, I will begin by stating my name, my title, and organization. Then the person to my right will do the same.

And we will continue until everyone has been introduced who's in the task force? So, my name is Gregory Ilagan, State Representative in the State House.

Good morning. My name is Christine Camp from Avalon Development Company. While I develop both residential and commercial. Today I'm representing the commercial commercial developers.

Good morning. Dean Minakami, Executive Director of the Hawaii Housing Finance and Development Corporation.

And please find a microphone where you can, because if you are not speaking onto the mic, then the people in Zoom cannot hear you.

Good morning. Jordan Odo, in my individual capacity.

Yuki Lei Sugimura, Council Member from Maui County.

Yes. Come up, Jessica, please.

Hi, I'm Jessica Puff, the Administrator of SHPD.

Kira Kahane, Deputy Director, DLNR, Commission on Water Resource Management.

Kyle Yamashita, Hawaii State House.

Michael Kat, Historic Preservation Planner here for DPP.

Good morning. Cameron Black from the Hawaii State Energy Office. I manage our Jobs and Outreach Branch on behalf of our Chief Energy Officer, Mark Glitt. Thank you.

Seiji Ogawa, Program Manager from Office of Planning, Sustainable Development.

Morning. Morgan Gerdel with the American Institute of Architects for the Hawaii State Council.

Aloha. Cameron Deptula, Special Advisor, Office of the Governor.

Good morning. Jennifer Salisbury from Maui, representing Small Business Regulatory Review Board.

Morning. John Nagato, Department of Health, Wastewater Branch Program Manager.

Good morning, everyone. Leolynne Escalona, County of Kauai, Development and Enforcement Manager.

Kaʻāina Hull, Planning Director, County of Kauai.

Hello, Martino Anselini, Canera HTDA.

Brian Kung. I'm the other individual, so I have no title.

Aloha. Mary Alice Evans, Director of the State Office of Planning and Sustainable Development.

Aloha. Sue Keohokapu-Lee Loy Representative Hilo.

Good morning. Tyson Miyake, State Representative, District 10, Maui

Mike Lee, State House District 50.

I do see some of the other tasks for his members who settling in. Could you please. If you could approach the mic, please.

Good morning. Howard Wiig, State Building Code Council Chair.

Ian Withy-Barry, Policy Assistant in the office of the Governor.

Good morning. Sharla Bellanoza with the Hawaii Government Employees Association.

You can use that one.

Aloha. Good morning. Perry Arrasmith, Director of Policy at Housing Hawaii East Future.

And they are representing the residential developers.

Aloha. I'm Anand Samtani, supervising economist, PUC, representing. PUC 4. Leo Asuncion, Chairman.

Did I miss anyone else?

Good morning. I'm Monica Toguchi Ryan, Economic Development for the Chamber of Commerce, specifically for family business.

Nice. You slid right in, Monica. All right, anyone else?

I'm Lee Wang, Executive Director of Housing Hawaii's Future.

Last call. Thank you for that exercise and thank you for your patience. We will not do that ever again. Actually, I did miss one more. Vice speaker, could you please come up and state. Well, Linda Ichiyama, Vice speaker, the State House. Is there anyone else that I missed? Okay, yes, we will not do that again.

We just. This is our first meeting. We want to make sure that everyone stated their name. And because of Sunshine, it allows us to be flexible in that sense. Well, thank you, Members, and thank you for your participation in our Speed Task Force.

So, public testimony will be heard throughout the meeting specific to the agenda item on hand. I will now open up the floor for public testimony only on the first item of the agenda, which is the Chair's report on the Speed Task Force orientations. Anyone on Zoom wishing to testify? We have. Mr. Mold, are you in Zoom?

Doesn't look like he is. Not present. All right, we're going to move back to our physical space. Is there anyone here in person wishing to testify? Seeing none, we will move on to our first agenda item of the day. Today, Members, is a very special day.

And as part of my Chair's remark, let us take a moment of silence in remembrance of September 11th. Even though this tragedy happened far from Hawaii, it touched us deeply. Today, 24 years later, we pause to honor those who were lost and to remember the unity that carried our nation forward.

Everyone, please close your eyes as we take a moment of silence in remembrance of 911.

Thank you. Well, I've been conducting presentations statewide to share the task force work on simplifying permitting. I share this to ensure transparency and in keeping with sunshine laws, so the public knows where these presentations occurred, and which Task Force members were present.

On July 18, I presented the Speed Task Force Orientation PowerPoint, which is included in our board packet, to a Transit Oriented Development Council meeting. Members present were Mary Alice Evans, Dean, Minakami, and Seiji Ogawa. If I missed anyone, please identify yourself, if you are in that meeting.

On August 13, I presented to the Maui Chamber of Commerce and Jennifer Salisbury was present. Anyone else was present at that meeting?

On August 14, I presented to the Kona Kohala Chamber on August 28 to the Japanese Chamber of Commerce on Hawaii Island, on September 2nd to the Hawaii Island Chamber of Commerce, on September 4th to the Hawaii Island Native Hawaiian Chamber, and last, on September 5 to the Kapolei Chamber of Commerce.

No Task Force members were present at these meetings. If I miss anyone in those meetings, please identify yourself. Any comments from members before we move on to our presentations? Agenda items 2 and 3 are presentations from Kauai County and Hawaii County on the building permit process. Public testimony is now open.

Anyone on Zoom wishing to testify on these two items? We're going to move from Zoom to the physical space. Anyone here in person wishing to testify? Seeing none. Testimony is closed. We will now transition to the presentation from Kauai County. You will have 20 minutes to present, followed by 10 minutes for questions. Kauai County, please proceed.

Okay, I think we have a PowerPoint queued up. Okay, the first...

Let's take a moment and get the PowerPoint situated. Now. Bear with us. This is our first PowerPoint, so it may take a second. Go ahead.

Okay, so I'll just give a general overview. On PowerPoint—I'm not the best PowerPoint person, quite honestly. Leo put together a wonderful portion of PowerPoint for zoning, but I'll kind of just go through the tiers of permitting and those first 10 slides. Whoever is operating the PowerPoint, feel free to click it when you think appropriate.

I think for much of the group, you consider the building permit and permitting process under the DPP model, in which zoning and building are one in the, you know, a one stop shop, essentially. That does not hold true for the Outer Islands.

The Planning Director, unlike the Planning Director for a city and county, oversees zoning permits but does not oversee building permits.

So, the Planning Department processes zoning permits and the Building Department, which is on the other islands within the Public Works Division, processes—process—process building permits and you need to kind of look at zoning permits are essentially for form and character.

And that's primarily what they're after, ensuring that the farm character is in keeping with what the community vision and plans are for these specific areas. The zoning will also generally dictate density, one unit per acre and upward. And the building permits are generally much more concerned with health and safety.

The zoning permit process for Kauai, from a farm and character standpoint, from a draftsman or architect standpoint, is actually less, I don't want to use the word intrusive, but less robust, if you will, because we're more concerned with the farm and character.

So, for zoning permits, you don't actually need an architectural stamp because we're not so much concerned with the building falling over the person's head. For building permits though, you certainly do need an architectural stamp because of, again, it's that health and safety issue.

There are some zoning permits that will be required that will not require building permits, things like change in use or certain structures that are not as large to trigger a building permit. So, there is a usefulness of having a bifurcated process whereby some applications just won't need an architectural stamp because they don't need a building permit.

The zoning permit process is also essentially two tiered. You have the ministerial zoning permit process, which are the outright permissible uses and structures, such as a single-family dwelling in the residential district, insofar as the application meets the various zoning regulations, setback, height, so on and so forth.

The Planning Department is required by law to approve that permit. If it lists too long—our timeline is 30 days—if it's in our queue for longer than 30 days and we haven't taken action on it, it is automatically approved by law. That's for the ministerial permit.

Now, there are also on the second tier for zoning permits, the discretionary permits, and these are permits that need higher scrutiny. They're generally for larger impact type uses or uses that aren't quite in keeping with the zoning district that's being proposed, such as, I don't know, a bar in the residential neighborhood.

You're going to have to get a use permit. And the primary purpose of the use permit is to ensure compatibility because it's a higher, intensified use in an area that might not be generally permissible, just to ensure the compatible nature of that proposal within the community, within the environment, within the area. And that's our zoning permit process.

So, those discretionary permits will be for the Planning Commission. The Planning Department will be advisory to the Planning Commission. But those discretionary permits are only acted upon by the Planning Commission and that's via a public hearing.

And these discretionary permits, of course, the potential for them to be lengthy and this being the SPEED Task Force, comes into the fact that they have the potential for intervention from an aggrieved party or party that wants to be a party to the, to the proceedings.

If there is an intervention and a discretionary permit, and you know, I don't want to say that the litmus test for intervention is a beating heart, but to a certain degree, as long as you've got some interest, you're probably going to be granted intervention and standing into the proceedings.

And that will turn it into a minimum two-year process because of the contested case hearing nature, the various hearings that are associated with it. It is essentially a quasi-judicial proceeding.

And if the party is aggrieved or the applicant feels aggrieved by the action of the Planning Commission after they finally review and take action on the case, it certainly can go on to the appellant courts or to the courts and the appellant courts.

So, you do see some contested case situations lasting for 7, 8, 9, maybe even 10 or 12 years before any action from the courts. So, from that aspect, the potential for a lengthy review process does definitely occur whenever you have the potential for intervention. And that's essentially the zoning permit tiers for the County of Kaua'i.

I also add to that with the Planning Department review is the special management area. So, on behalf of the Cesium Law established in HRS, the counties process and review those applications in the coastal area. You have SMA Minor Permits that are outright somewhat ministerial to a certain degree, and then you have permits that require Planning Commission review.

You know, generally speaking, it's a much lengthier process and without getting into the nuances of it, for the most part, the County Kauai Planning Department feels that having a lengthier process in the coastal area and environmental sensitive areas is appropriate.

But it is, by all means—there's a joke that if you're going to cough in the SMA, you need an SMA determination at a minimum. So, thems is just apples. But again, if it's at the discretionary level, certainly it has the opportunity for intervention, and that can potentially be a several yearlong process. That is the zoning permit process in a nutshell.

And this process feeds into the building permit review insofar as long as the building permit proposals with the architectural stamp meet what was approved in the zoning permit, the Planning Department sign us off on the building permit and the same holds true for the Planning Commission level permits insofar as what gets submitted to the Building Division is what was approved informing character and design by the Planning Commission.

The Planning Department signs off on behalf of the Planning Commission for the building permits. But it is a two track process. Before I turn it over to Leolynne to go over our building permit process—I don't know, Rep, if we're taking questions, or.

We will take questions after the presentation. Thank you.

I'll, I'll just turn it over to Leolynne to go over the building permit process.

All right, thank you. So, went over briefly the function of the Planning Department. They have the Class 1, Class 2, 3, and 4 zoning permits.

Leolynne, if you don't mind, could you just move the mic so it's right? Thank you.

Okay, thank you. So, as, as I stated, Planning Department, they have Class 1, 2, 3, and 4 zoning permits with varying degrees of requirements. But for the Building Division, we're just dealing with the actual construction, so, that would be building, plumbing, and electrical. So going over some of the items that you requested and it is presentation.

As far as submitting your planning and your building permit applications, we have two options, either online or in person, and we have links on our county website to do such. So, part of today's focus was for new builds, renovations, and conversions. I'm not going to go through all of the information that I wrote on the slideshows.

I'll just do an overview. But I tried to put in as much information as I could so people could use that for reference if they're looking deeper into applying for permitting with our county.

And Leolynne, make sure that we're on the right slide while we go through your presentation.

Yes. If you can proceed to the next slide.

Keep going. One more.

Yeah. Okay. So, this is our county website. We have, as it states, Planning Department, they have their zoning permit applications online, as well as Building Division permit applications. Next slide. So, for today's focus, it was a multi-tier request for initially homeowner and family-owned businesses.

We, at Building Division, whenever someone approaches our office, they want to maybe build a house, I guess house and extension, we always encourage the applicants to first check with any department to check on the zoning and see if that is even possible for their area.

Another division that we encourage people to look at is engineering if there's any flood pain issues.

And the next department would be Department of Water, if you're adding another dwelling to your parcel that might require a new water meter, and they would need to check with their agency to see if there is a capability in their area for additional water.

For the County of Kauai, we have a lot of properties that are on individual wastewater systems. Oh, and obviously a lot of older homes that are on cesspool. For State Department of Health, if you're doing any renovations or additions to dwellings that are currently on cesspool that you require the FDE upgrade to septic system. So, that's also another consideration.

If you are planning on doing a new build or extension, you would need to have your individual wastewater system installed and improved by Department of Health before the building permit is approved. Also, for the County of Kauai, we have a Fire Department that looks at new and remodeled construction.

They want to check for apparatus access and also water capacity. In some instances for residential construction, they have required that the owners install their own fire sprinkler system because they don't have the equipment or the water capability to get out to their property. Thanks a lot. Okay.

Okay, so, for residential and commercial developers, essentially the same process is residential, but now we're getting into the different types of zoning permits, which, in some instances, is a lot more complex process. It might need to go to Planning Commission, so we always encourage these types of applicants, GFRs, get their zoning permit approved even before they apply for the building permit.

Next slide. One of the questions that was posed was...if Kauai is for permitting. We're currently on Central Square. We're also looking at soliciting bids for a new enterprise resource planning system to replace Central Square. Next slide.

And we're also using Novotx, their Elements XS, and a lot of functions of the county are moving over into this area, using ArcGIS. So, it's a gradual process for us, but we are moving towards this platform. Next slide.

If County of Kauai has been 100% electronics since 2017, we're using ProjectDox Evolve and January of this year we went through a major software upgrade and right now, evolved as Integrate with Central Square. Next slide. This is an overview of ProjectDox.

So, this electronic plan review allows us to have applicants submit reviewing agencies, do their plan review all electronically online and all simultaneous. Next slide. And this is just an overview of the process. Once an application is received, staff reviews it, applies a unique permit number, and an email is sent to the applicant to upload their plans.

Next slide. Once the plans come into our office, our staff will do a quick pre-screen, make sure that everything is in order. If there's any corrections or missing items, they notify the applicant. Once we get all that information, we notify them that they need to pay their plan review fee. Next slide.

Well, these are just a few examples of what we look at for pre-screen—file naming standards, graphics standards, and file printing size standards. Next slide.

Once the review fee is paid, review coordinator then sends it out to all the reviewing agencies and it's up to the respective agencies to notify the applicant if there's any additional information needed, or if there's if any changes are needed to the plans. Next slide. Once that process is completed, plans are approved.

Applicant receives an email that their permit is ready to be paid for and issued. Next slide. This is just one example of a recent project in Lihui. It's mixed-use development, commercial on the first level and apartments on the upper levels. Next slide.

And for this slide, it's just illustrating all the reviewing agencies that are part of our plan review process, but it would depend on the scope of work. You might not necessarily have all these agencies looking at your plans. And just some information for County of Kauai, we issued 1,372 permits last fiscal year and valuation $434,891,589.

And then, I checked with our Wastewater Division to ask, you know, how many customers do we have online? And so, we have 577 commercial connections and 5,382 residential connections. And on the right of the slide, there's a breakdown of the various meter fees. Next slide. State Department of Health.

This is an estimate approximately 12,000 cesspools on islands, but they believe it might be a little less with a conversion to septic. 566 recorded commercial septic systems and 10, 761 residential septic systems. Next slide. And real property assessment. We have 1,304 commercial structures and 21,850 residential dwellings. Next slide.

This last slide is just information if people and the public want to check on a particular property. If there's any permit or the permanent history, you can go to Click2Gov. The link is on our county website, and you can access that information either by address or text...

I'll just add one last thing too. That was—it's been working for a few years now, but something to highlight between planning and building because you don't need architectural stamps for zoning permits, but you do need architectural stamps.

We did come across, several years ago, the horror stories of homeowners and applicants that submitted full architectural renderings with the stamp only to find out through the building permit process that they don't have the necessary water and water's not coming anytime soon, or they don't have the necessary size for the septic tanks required by Department of Health.

So, what we did was we spun up for the ARU guest house and ADU programs is they can literally just walk to the Planning Department, enter a TMK, and like hand draw, just hand draw where they're going to put the guest house or ARU on their plot plan and just upload it for free.

And that gets routed through the agencies. Now, the idea of having another routing system on top of the already bureaucratic nightmare, that is a building permit and zoning permit process, at first was a little like, but it was in the best interest of the homeowner to protect them from not getting architectural renderings until they were sure that they had the adequate infrastructure, and infrastructure being one of the key choke points for our building and zoning permit process.

So, I wouldn't argue to add more regulations or layers, but this is one extra layer that we found does seem to work. Just want to add that. Sorry.

So, I just want to add to what Ka'aina was saying. You know, for our staff on Kauai, we're a small island, small jurisdiction. We actually like when, especially for homeowners, if they come in person and then they come to our office and ask, because we try to advise them about exactly what Kaina was saying.

Before you even hire somebody to draw any plans, check with Water, check with Department of Health, check with planning on your zoning, because, you know, for some people, only once in their lifetime they might apply for a permit, and it's such an arduous process and we try to, you know, help them as much as we can.

Thank you. Kauai County, that was under scheduled. You're under 20 minutes, so that was great job. Quite a speedy presentation and thank you for starting us off. We are going to move on to questions. Members, we will have 10 minutes for questions, so, who would like to ask the first question?

Go ahead, Christine.

Christine Camp, Avalon Development. So you had mentioned that on the fire Department that you require the owners to put fire sprinklers. I wasn't sure what that meant.

Okay, so for County of Kauai Fire Department, they're part of our review process more recently for residential. If the structure is in excess of 300ft from the county road, they're going to take a second look where is that fire hydrant and they get their equipment up there. If there is insufficient water, they actually are fire prevention team.

They offer guidelines to the homeowners on various options on how they can maybe like install their own water tank on property and follow NFPA 13r requirements with regard to residential sprinklers which would just be a few cents. But it's, you know, it's all in the best interest of life safety.

If they, if they can't, if they can't react in a reasonable amount of time, they want to make sure that the residents, if there is a fire, they're going to get out alive.

Thank you. I have a question, Greggor, but I don't know how to electronically raise my hand.

Of course. Well, Denise, you're going to go after Lee. So Lee, go ahead and then Darrell, you'll be next.

Can you speak to the staffing in, in public works, whether, whether that's public works or the building division?

Okay. So currently as far as the art inspectors, we have a total of 14 that's building, plumbing, and electrical inspectors. We're essentially fully staffed on that. Where we are lacking is our front entry or our office staff, building permit clerks. It's really been a challenge to fill vacancies. Right now we have two vacancies.

But in talking to my counterparts across the state it seems like this is a common issue for the building divisions, especially the entry level positions is such a challenge to fill.

Thank you. Let's move on to zoom.

Oh, hold on. Denise, give me a, give me a second. Go ahead.

I'll just add to that too. Leo's front connor staff is processing the vast majority of these building permits and she starts staff. So that creates a delay. The Planning Department also experienced that same delay because we could not attract what are essentially permit technicians.

You know, I can say I got a little cute with recruitment because we converted all those positions to planner positions and of course that was able to attract and so we're fully staffed up. But I say I got cute with it because planner positions are responsible for permit review but they're also responsible for planning commission level review projects.

And a lot of these folks that signed up for it were kind of like, well, kind of like, I'm here to process the front counter permits and the front load and the bulk of the work that we have to do. I'm not really ready for a planning commission nor even do I want to.

And I was, my position was like, I need you to keep on processing these front countermeas. I'm not sending you to the planning commission.

But you have to understand that if a new Director comes in and they feel and a new Director will come in eventually and they feel that no, they should also go to the Planning Commission. It's part of the requirements of that, you know, staff position. And so that's why I say I got to be cute with it.

But it was the only way we could actually fill these positions and fully staff it up.

Thank you. Let's move on to zoom. Denise.

Sorry, I think I see the hand raising thing now, but. You said that you require the wastewater system to be installed like an individual wastewater system. And approved before the building permit is issued, is that correct? And what happens if they decide not to move forward with the project?

Yes. The Hawaii East Department of Health is one of the reviewing agencies in our building permit process. And so it is their policy that they will not approve the building permit until the individual wastewater system is installed, inspected, and approved by their office.

Thank you. Well, going to that question more into the presentation from DOH. Darrell, go ahead.

Yeah, Good morning Leland. This is Darrell Oliveira on the Big Island. Does the Kauai residential code allow for pre approved designs for residential design submittals for permitting?

We actually have had a couple of applications that come through. There is a vetting process. We do have language in our ordinance regarding factory built housing, but essentially it's a vetting process.

Even before you would submit for building permit, we would need to look at the plans, approve the the off site third party inspector and of course the plans themselves would require a lot more information. Even if it's residential, it would be essentially be like a commercial plans. But.

And there are a couple of applicants that are working through that process now.

Thank you. And I guess separate and apart from the factory built or off site construction. On site construction, is there a process for pre approved designs for that?

Not for the County of Kauai because we feel that every set of plans is site specific. So we're going to be looking at elevations, soil types that would be taken into consideration. So we would not give a blanket pre approved approval for what you're describing.

Thank you.

Thank you. We're going to go back to the physical space. Representative Miyake.

Thank you. Using project docs, can the project owners review comments made by the departments as a goes along?

Yes. So the applicant and if they choose to allow others view rights, they can see all comments in real time.

Great, thank you.

Representative Keohokapu-Lee Loy.

Thank you, Chair. Thanks for being here. What is the lifespan of a construction permit? How long is that construction permit good for?

Well, the way our ordinance is written, as long as there's some permit activity every 180 days the permit remains active.

And our ordinance also allows if someone was issued their permit maybe for financing they weren't able to continue, they can submit a letter to the building official asking for a one time extension for 180 days.

If they ask that we also have a process of a permit renewal so that essentially that would require review of all the reviewing agencies and they would pay a renewal fee.

And during that renewal process, if our construction codes are updated or modified, would they be submitting to the construction code that they applied under or would they have to make modifications to their construction permit based on the current code?

Okay, I'll talk through that a little bit. See somebody applied for a residential build, maybe the project sat for like a year and a half, and then they decide, okay, I'm going to renew my permit and, and you know, now I have the money to start up again.

What we're going to look at because essentially it will go through a secondary review by all the agencies. If the project hasn't yet started or maybe they're only at foundation, we're going to look at whatever the current code is and then from that when the construction proceeds it would need to be up to whatever the current code is.

Thanks, Chair.

Thank you. We have Jordan.

Yeah, thank you so much. So my question is have you received complaints from users or residents or developers? And if you have received complaints, I guess what would be the top three types of complaints that you've received?

Is this with regard to electronic?

It could be anything.

Well, I think for new like, for you know, like homeowners or people that are not computer savvy, sometimes, you know, they have a challenge, you know, navigating project docs. How do I log in? What is it that I'm looking for?

So our staff, we try to assist or sometimes we suggest maybe you should use someone that does that, a permit service as a permit service, you know, to encourage them to use that. As far as developers, I think maybe from people that are not familiar with Kauai processes, you know, as far as they need to check with the different agencies like Department of, Water, Department of Health, Fire Department, and understand that they have different requirements outside of the building permit application process.

So I think it's important for developers. They need to do their due diligence even before their application is in our office.

To me, there are complaints.

Could you put the microphones here?

There are complaints and there are still definitely faults with us as a system. One of them that I found was that we were very cognizant of having timelines. Not even the legal trigger timelines, but just time in the queue always.Like a week, two weeks.

Our staff at the Planning Department and the front counter guys are real cognizant. We don't want to have this longer than two weeks. But what that created was this knee jerk reaction to take action on it. Not approve, right? Take action.

Which means they were nitpicking some of the issues because other issues were revolved and so immediately denied. Right? And it's kind of like, wait, wait, you need to go through. So you have the comment section, right? And there'll be that one, oh, setback, violated, denied. And then moving on.

And when they came in through a second cycle, it was like, oh, lock coverage, an issue, denied. And it was kind of like, no, no, no, guys, we need to do a comprehensive review so they get all the comments one time. So we're working through that.

And then also too, there was like, if they didn't pay the permit fee, right? Like, Oh, denied. It was like, wait, did. Did we call the applicant? No, they just haven't come in to pay the permit. Well, the developers are gonna know to pay the fee, but the small mom and pop homeowners aren't gonna necessarily know.

So having us make sure we call them to bring it in. But that concern, again with those timelines has a lot to do going back to the staffing. Right?

Most of these departments are overwhelmed, understaffed, and they're trying to at least maintain the image that they're moving quickly, when in fact, trying to maintain that image sometimes is actually making it much longer. I had one more, but I kind of lost it.

It's all right. Well, we are over the questions and thank you for bracing the hot seat. And you did very well with answering the questions. We are finished with our presentation from Kauai County. We are going to move on to the next presentation from Hawaii County.

And again, you will have 20 minutes to present, followed by 10 minutes for questions. Hawaii County. I know you're in Zoom. Could you please start your presentation?

Thank you, State Rep. Ilagan. Okay, so we are County of Hawaii. And with me today in the meeting is Neil Tanaka, Plans Examining Manager. And I'd like to send out a thank you to all of the staff that worked on.

Aaron, I apologize for interrupting you, but I believe it told me that your face, as much as I want to see it, I think we are not seeing it. So could we just take. There you go. All right, now that you are clearly with us and maybe could you make it a little bit bigger?

My face?

No, not. If you could. I mean, it is impossible, but maybe.

Sorry, guys, I'm not.

Okay, Aaron, you are now good to go. Go ahead.

Okay. Sorry about that, guys. So, yeah, I'd just like to thank everybody that worked on this presentation. Mark Krasinowski and our Building IT staff. They did a great job putting this together. And also thank you to all of the staff that works here at County of Hawaii. We definitely couldn't do it without you. Our system.

Sorry, slide one. Our system is acronym is EPIC and that stands for Electronic Processing and Information Center. Okay, so we're on the goal. The goal. Just read it. It's the permitting process that is clear, predictable, and supportive of all applicants while maintaining public safety and code compliance. This is our major goal. Next slide, please. Permit process overview.

This shows the typical path that a permit takes in the County of Hawaii. At any stage, the application may be returned for corrections. Our goal is always to minimize returns. Staff and agencies try to give comprehensive correction requests the first time. We call this taking one bite of the apple. Try to do comprehensive before we issue comments.

Sometimes one change can trigger other changes in the drawings and those must be reviewed again. Once all reviews are complete the final requirement before issuance is the project declaration form which connects the license trades general contractor or the owner builder to the project. Okay, next slide please. Starting the application. This lays out our process.

The applicants begin in EPIC by uploading the documents and paying the plan review fee. The permit timeline that we track only begins once the payment is received. Until then, the application is not considered in process.

The property owner declaration ensures that the legal property owner is applying or in the case of, let's say a commercial project, that they're aware that a permit is being applied on their property. Both the owner and the design professional must be listed as contacts in our EPIC system.

And the idea being that we can be more transparent and share this information to all parties involved. Okay, next slide, please. All right, supporting documents. So this gives a brief outline of what may be required. These documents ensure compliance with specialized codes and regulations. You can see the list here. They're not always required all the time.

It really depends on the project. Submittals missing. These, if they're required, would be returned, which can add time to the process. And we consider anything other than single family or duplex housing as non res. So even though you might be a hotel, motel, R1, R2 type of housing that's considered non res, non residential. Sorry. Next slide, please.

Okay, required construction documents. So this is fairly typical across most municipalities. If any of these documents are missing or incomplete and they are required, then the application is returned for corrections at the time of intake. We emphasize to applicants that a complete setup front reduces the returns and keeps the processing moving forward.

We'd hate to review something in depth and find out that it's missing information and then have to do the review again. That's kind of the impetus for this. Okay, next slide, please. All right, digital submission standards. So since July 2021, the building permit applications in the County of Hawaii have been handled digitally through EPIC.

We moved off of paper plans before that. To maintain consistency, we require specific formatting for the drawing sheets. This ensures that all reviewers can quickly identify approval blocks, digital stamps, and what they're reviewing. The plan sets must be submitted as a single bundled PDF, not scattered across multiple files.

And we have file naming conventions to help keep plan sets organized when routing across multiple agencies. When corrections are made, or sorry, when corrections are made after comments have been issued, the applicants must use. We have a policy here called the Cloud plus Delta policy and naming convention.

So this visually highlights every change on the plan sheets to address those comments. And a narrative summary is required to explain what was revised. This helps review the resubmittals in a more efficient manner. So these standards save time for both applicants and reviewers and also reduce the risk of missed changes. Okay, next slide is multi agency review.

So once an application clears the Planning Department, it moves to multi agency review. EPIC allows reviews to happen in parallel instead of one at a time, which is a major efficiency improvement compared to our old system when it was sequential reviews. Each agency looks only at its area of responsibility.

For example, Engineering division will look at grading and floodplain compliance, while Fire will look at life, safety, and access issues. If an agency identifies corrections, they issue a comment through EPIC. And once a comment is posted, it is visible live to the contacts on the permit application.

The applicant then revises and resubmits to address the comments, and the agency reviews the corrections until they are satisfied. So that process might go back and forth a few times, but for the most part, the applicants are able to resubmit with a correction that addresses the comment.

So at this stage, it's common for one correction to cascade into another. For example, you could move something on a site plan that may affect another agency's review. So we end up making sure that all agencies have a chance to review that new information.

And the goal is always to minimize returns to the applicant by making correction requests complete and clear the first time. That goes back to our one bite of the apple. Okay, next slide please. Project declaration and permit issuance. So after all reviews are complete, there's one more form that's required. It's the project declaration form.

And this is where the license trades, plumber, electrician, general contractor, or owner builder are officially tied to the project. State law also allows owner to declare as owner builder with those associated risks. And then we take in that project declaration form as part of that final documentation.

Now, technically, the project declaration form can be submitted at any time, including with the original application. But most applicants we find are waiting until reviews are complete and their trades are secured. Mostly that has to do with timing and availability of contractors.

This sometimes extends the timeline, but it ensures permits are only issued once the project is quote "shovel ready". Once the declaration is filed and the permit fees are paid, the county issues the permit. The applicant prints a permit placard to post at the job site and a copy of the county stamp drawings.

We often call it the job site copy. And those two documents remain on the site throughout construction to support the inspections. Okay, next slide please. Oh, challenges we face. Yeah, high volume of applications for sure. We have limited staffing resources, but we're, you know, all working really hard, doing the best we can with what we have.

And again, thanks to the staff for being so on it. Review and compliance requirements take time and applications and plans are incomplete and or poor quality. That's not a broad statement across the board. That's just we do encounter those and so those are challenges we face. Okay, next slide please. Implemented and ongoing improvements.

So previously we had a three permit system. So you would pull a permit for building, it would get reviewed and approved, and then the plumbing contractor and electrical contractor would each come in and file their own sub trade permit applications. We've done away with all that. We're now in a one permit system.

So you submit the plans with building, plumbing, and electrical work all at one go, gets reviewed all at one time. And that seems to be a very efficient, progressive move and less confusion in the permitting and inspection world.

Transparency by keeping the owner informed through the notifications, which is part of an automated process we have through our EPIC system. So applicants, owners, they don't need to call and ask about what the status of their permit is. They can go online at midnight on a Saturday and check out what the comments are, and it's always available.

We recognize that permitting is always evolving, and we continue to refine our processes over time. That's internal stuff that we work on. We have automated reminders and clear FAQs to help reduce missteps that would be out there for the public. Better tracking in EPIC improves transparency for both applicants and staff.

Internally, we have weekly improvement sessions to allow us to continue refining workflows and other efficiencies. Looking ahead, we see opportunities in digital tools like validation features, electronic signatures, and we're looking at pre screening with AI before clerical staff would actually see the submittal.

These improvements are all focused on making the process smoother for applicants and more efficient for staff without compromising life, safety or compliance with codes. Okay, next slide, please. Oh, yeah, right on. So thank you all very much for giving us this opportunity to present to the state.

And we're very excited with the direction the County of Hawaii permitting process is heading in. And thank you all very much. Open it up for questions.

Well, thank you, Aaron. You finished in 10 minutes. So that means the carryover 10 minutes will go to questions and answers. No, I'm just joking. So we have 10 minutes for questions. We'll start off with Michael Kat, if you. Okay, let's go with Cameron.

Thank you, Hawaii County and Kauai County for the very informative presentations this morning. Going back to the staffing, what kind of minimum qualifications or education are you folks looking for for the entry level techs or technicians or inspectors? Thank you.

Great question. I think that probably varies by position description, which does tie back to the state PDs. You mentioned entry level technicians. And I'm sorry, what were the other two categories?

Perhaps the clerks and maybe the inspectors. Sorry for the compounded question.

Oh, no, you're fine.

We got. We got extra time, right? So I know I can answer for the inspections, for the inspectors. To be a electrical inspector, you have to have your EJ and I believe, I believe you're. I know at least a journeyman's license is required at a certain level of being an electrical inspector.

I believe that at the supervisor level that becomes a master's license requirement. Same for plumbing, journeyman license required for the, the plumbing inspectors and then for the supervisory plumbing inspector, a master's plumber license required. Building inspectors do not have that requirement.

And I believe a lot of the PD talks about experience with similar or even other works and so you may not, we may not have a requirement for let's say college or higher level education as opposed to like maybe 20 years in the field or whatever. I'm sorry, I don't have the specifics in front of me.

We might be able to get that back to you but I believe it's consistent throughout the state for those PDs.

Aaron, this is Neil Tanaka from the County of Hawaii.

Just to supplement that, to answer your question, the clerical staff is an entry level position. So it is a high school degree at the very minimum. And then we through training onboard them through, through that process. For our plans examiners it is experience based 3 years of building construction experience.

We also have structural engineer positions, electrical engineer positions, and mechanical engineer positions at various levels. So we, we offer training levels or at least entry levels so that if you don't have your license PE yet you can come in and then once you do achieve that you are able to move up into the engineer position.

Thanks you, guys.

All right, questions. Councilwoman Yuki Lei.

Thank you. So I'm curious, your last slide, you talked about the AI helping you in terms of is it plan review? And I wonder if you could tell us what the software is that you're using to help you and what is the success of that and any information. Very interesting.

Okay, thank you. If I understood correctly, we haven't implemented it yet. We're just doing the research and the pre procurement to figure out if the software would be good and what we could use it for. So I believe we looked at a number of different softwares. If it's okay, I can name them right now. That's all right?

Yeah, of course.

Okay. So I believe the pre screening software is SIF check. I think City and County of Honolulu is using that currently and we're looking into that seriously for pre screening. We've also looked at a few other ones.

The names are escaping me but we've basically sat down and had presentations made and trying to look at where they might fit in and what we might be able to do but nothing implemented yet.

Thank you. There were a couple hands here. Mr. Wang.

So it'll probably recurring theme but I'll have the same question about the joys of understaffing.

Okay, great. I think we actually prepared this one. Thanks for asking the same question. That helps us prepare. It looks like we currently have 31 inspectors that would be building plumbing and electrical inspectors. We do have a few vacancies. Most notably, it's hard to, it's challenging to hire plumbing inspectors.

The market's hot, it's hard to attract people to the county. But we are actively hiring and our attrition rate seems to be low. In terms of the review team, looks like we have ten building clerks, one Clerk 3, five building plans examiners with one vacancy, one structural engineer, one mechanical engineer.

We have a TA 2 electrical engineer, a TA 2 architect 2 and a TA 2 plant examining manager. We're always looking for interested and engaged people to hire at the county and I don't want to say we're short staffed, but we definitely work hard to move things along.

Thank you. Monica.

Thank you so much, Kauai county and Hawaii county and especially for this review that you've done internally. I've heard a lot of staffing issues. There seems to be qualification issues.

One issue just on the ground level is how if you have this issue and other counties have this issue where something can be reviewed, a reviewer can approve and then somehow it goes to another review in the same department and then another issue comes up.

So user, on the user end, they're really not understanding why something is approved and then unapproved and then the issue becomes time. Of how to address, confusion in time really. So does that happen with you guys and how do you address that?

Thank you for the question. We really try to avoid that with our one bite of the apple. So if Plans Examiner A, let's say, reviewed your plans and let's say there was a comment made and then your plans come back in as a resubmittal, that same Plans Examiner is going to be assigned to that review.

So it's unlikely that Plans Examiner B would then open up the file and take a second bite of the apple. So we really try to be efficient in our, in our comments and understanding. I hope that answers the question.

Thank you. Oh, do you have a follow up, Monica?

Yeah, just. Sorry. One more is, is do you guys do white papers when there's confusion on some of the approval process so that there's clarification for everyone involved because like for example in Seattle, I believe their department has established writing white papers for this type of stuff.

Is that what they used to call client assisted memos, CAMs?

Yeah, I'm not exactly sure what it is. I'm limited in my own expertise in this area, but from my understanding is when there's information that seems to conflict within the department and there's different views on a particular code or reviewer than the process of writing white papers so that we don't keep going through the same misunderstanding within the department and the user being affected by all these different interpretations.

So we don't necessarily call them white papers, but are memos or bulletins that we post on our public facing website. For example, we had one clarifying locations of smoke detectors. Smoke, sorry, smoke alarms in residential construction. There was some confusion because of the NFPA 72 and the IRC.

And so we wrote a memo to clarify those locations so that designers, contractors, the public could be aware of it. That's basically our public facing responses. If there's an issue we think is big enough, we try to broadcast that out. And it just kind of depends on the severity or the seriousness of what's being reviewed.

A lot of times if it's a custom project, a commercial project, that issue may only apply to that particular project. We may not be writing a white paper on that or a memo.

And yeah, Seattle, they have a, you know, King County's got a great building division, so I've always appreciated how they, how they do their work there.

Yeah, Aaron, just to quickly supplement that. As Aaron alluded, each project is generally unique in its own right. However, yes, the answer is generally yes. As he mentioned, with regards to like smoke alarms, I mean we had several years ago when we updated our code to 2018, a confusion with regards to residential projects in different wind speed areas.

And so we needed to provide clarity and how to apply the IRC in those areas. And so we did publish a memo. But we really are trying to encourage our team for that consistent review across all reviewers. And just a peek behind the curtain, we hold weekly meetings with our staff to address these issues.

Things that you see during plan review that are confusing and, or potentially interpreted in a different way so that we have the discussion and internally resolve that. And if, as Aaron mentioned, it arises to the point of needing to broadcast that we would because we are really focused on that transparency and fairness.

And so that's the only really way to apply it to everybody when they apply for their projects.

Thank you. That is 10 minutes for questions and answers. But because we are way ahead of schedule, we're going to take three minutes to have further questions and then we'll break in. We'll take a break after that. We'll go with Christine and then we'll go with Rep. Keohokapu-Lee Loy.

Thank you. So very encouraging to see your implemented and ongoing improvement slide. But how do you measure your success? So you know what, when you're looking at implementing these, what was your goal, if any and how are you achieving that at this point and at what timeline? Like, is it a year, is it six months?

You know, like, are there any specific goals that you're trying to achieve?

Great question. Yes, there's always goals. The goals are always here in our mind. And every time we meet one or get closer to one, we try and improve it further. There's a few I can probably mention here. One is the time that it took to process an intake of an application had been very long.

I mean like multiple months. I think we're down to five days right now. So that's really good. In terms of like the history of EPIC, that might be the fastest intake process has ever been. So you submit on a Monday, by Friday or Saturday you have your intake complete and it's moving on to Planning Department for review.

We also hold accountability across staff by running reports. So our Building IT section runs reports based on the data available in epic.

So the Building IT staff takes that data and turns it into a report so that we can advise staff of any applications that are delayed or that need to be, you know, addressed that have fallen, basically have gone beyond the goal that we're implementing. So let's say we have an 11 day review timeline for plans examiners.

Anything that's beyond day 11 will show up as red. And the plans examiners know visually that those require some more attention and sooner. And then as Mr. Tanaka mentioned, we hold weekly meetings across different sections of staff to make sure we're meeting goals, moving things forward.

And I want to say our latest data for a three month average for not, for residential permits, one pass, meaning no comments, 45 days. That's calendar days and a month and a half. You know, in my experience here at the county, that's incredible. I mean, even in paper plans we were about three months. So to be a month and a half is remarkable.

Thank you. Rep.

Thanks, Chair. Thanks, Aaron. Thanks Neil, for being here. I wanted to focus a little bit on the $50 permit fee at application. I want to understand efficacy of that. And have you experienced better work product coming through because of that initial fee? That's question one.

And then question two is for those construction permits you mentioned the one bite of the apple corrections are offere. Is there any, I don't want to call them penalties but a penalty where they can't make the corrections? And are there any additional fees assessed?

Great question. I'd like to ask Mr. Tanaka to step in and help me with this response. Is that okay, Neil?

Sure. So thank you for your question. Your first question with regards to the $50. So that's a plan review fee and that plan review fee is a $50 minimum fee or 20% of your estimated permit fee and that's non refundable.

So really it's a good faith commitment to us from the applicant to say hey look we are ready to do our job. Like historically we were just taking in everything, reviewing everything, and then getting ready to issue and no one was ready to either pick up or they abandoned their project.

So it really affected our efficiency. So when we get that pre review plan review fee, like I said, good faith commitment, then we are able to focus on projects that we know are going to move forward and it has been successful. Now to your point about quality, quality can range even with that plan review fee.

But I think that some folks have really taken the effort to try and get right. As Aaron mentioned, we are experiencing first passes which is successful 45 days. But dovetailing into your second question, there are penalties with regards to multiple resubmittals.

Like our team is, we want to issue permits and we don't want to re review plans over and over and over again. And so we've implemented a re resubmittal fee after your second review. Right? We expect or we, we think that mistakes happen and if they do that's fine.

Here are the comments, respond to them, and if they're resolved, great. But if we have to continue to open up an application re review and the comments are not addressed by way of whatever reason, then it's really affecting our efficiency. Right?

And so with the implementation of our narrative to address these comments, this is what I did to change. It helps the design professional focus on that response and our plans reviewer review accordingly and then hopefully resolve those issues.

But again if they don't then there is a third time submittal fee, a fourth time submittal fee, and a fifth time submittal fee.

Thank you. Actually Representative, we're going to. The time is up, but we're gonna have Representative Yamashita close us out with one final question.

Okay, thank you for giving me some flexibility. Okay. You know this one bite at the apple and you know I think most of my questions have been answered by the previous people's questions. But so I appreciate that you have consolidated where you know, construction and other permits are just combined into one and things like that.

But are you. And you have that pre review but after that are you looking at everything? Is it operated in series, one thing after another, or is it in parallel where several things are being reviewed all at the same time?

And if it's not, then what are the challenges for some of that and to have some kind of concurrent review from electrical, water construction all at the same time and maybe others.

We do have concurrent review. Once the application is through intake, it goes on to Planning Department. We're right on the transition period where Planning Department reviews for zoning and regulations like the look and character as the gentleman from Kauai mentioned. And then it comes back to building for multi agency review.

That would be electrical, plumbing, engineering, Department of Health, wastewater, or our county Department of Environmental Management if it's connected to sewer. We would have.

You know, I'm just kind of looking for what are the challenges with running concurrent review if you had run into any.

You know, we use the Bluebeam sessions sometimes it's a software thing like the software is not working. So that's a challenge, I guess. But for the most part it's actually been a real plus. I haven't seen any downside. I haven't been here that long, but I haven't seen any downside to the concurrent reviews.

Yeah, this is Neil Tanaka just to supplement. I agree our concurrent review has definitely helped to streamline the review process. And yes, it's a complex process and each individual agency are really responsible for their own review.

However, hearkening back to the one bite of the apple, sometimes when the plan comes in and they do not provide a specific information, say for example construction type of the building, that has a trickle down effect to all other reviews. Right?

And it's if that's the main thing that comes out, we try and address all of the questions on top of that so that the person can, the applicant can address it. But it may come back that whatever construction type for that structure is defined upon that second review that flips the whole review upside down.

And so it becomes problematic that way. And that is one challenge. But at least mechanical systems are independent of that. And so we can review plumbing, how the design is implemented, it may change because construction type may change the size of the building.

But then generally the comments are the same and we would just do a quick review to that end.

Okay, well, thank you. Great presentation and the questions of answers as well. We will now recess for 15 minutes while we distribute the bentos. Please return to your seat by the end of the break to begin a working lunch. So at this moment, we are going to take a recess.

We are back from recess. Please be seated. Agenda items 4 and 5 are presentations from Maui County and city and County of Honolulu on the building permit process. Public testimony is now open. Anyone on Zoom wishing to testify?

Hello, I'd like to testify.

Proceed. Please state your name and your. We know who you are, actually. Yeah, Angela, please state your name.

Yes. Hello, Representative Angela Melody Young testifying on behalf of CARES.

Angela, would you mind turning on your video?

Okay.

Okay, perfect. Thank you.

All right, so testifying for the Honolulu building permit process. Is this okay? In support? Yeah. And support, of course. I'm very, you know, supportive, big fan of the state and the counties. And of course, I'm getting trained to build a real estate agent for Abe Lee's class.

And then my mom is actually an agent for Century 21 properties. So I'm learning a lot about these barriers. And so, you know, in the development cost, I think the county is focusing on new builds, renovations and then workflow structures and common challenges.

And yet, with a lot of the teams that I'm working with in building, I think the county should consider dealing with the growing unsheltered homeless population, people with disabilities, chronic illnesses, special needs persons, housing, building for seniors, and. And for the county to consider more resources and balancing the equity for those with diminished and disadvantaged health.

So, for example, like working with the SNAP and QUEST integration offices, the state offices, collaborating county and state offices, just to do something simple like can we put brochures for available housing for low income eligibility at the SNAP or QUEST office. It's so helpful instead of people having to call 100 people just to get one single resource.

And so, you know, I get it that there's a lot of people that are dealing with like building luxury housing. And that process is so much easier. The barriers for low income eligibility, housing is just so much more. I really do like Department of Land Management.

Please summarize your testimony.

Yeah, so the land management office from the county is very helpful. And yet, you know, there's wait list. So, you know, I'm working with churches. Workaholis. One of the pastors I'm working with is a founding Member of G70. So, you know, churches have a lot of resources. So it's been really fun process, learning about the governmental procedures.

So thank you so much.

Thank you, Angela. Mr. Mold, would you like to testify?

Yes, please. I'm so sorry for missing. You're fine.

Please state your name.

Chair and Members of the task force. My name is Rocky Mold, Executive Director of the Hawaii Solar Energy Association. We represent over 70 Member companies, including local installers and contractors and financiers, as well as leading global clean tech manufacturers and service providers doing business here.

Together, our Members design, install and support rooftop solar, distributed residential and commercial solar and battery storage across the state. We've seen some progress in recent years, particularly under the city's City and County of Honolulu's latest actions. Ordinances have enabled instant online permits for single family residential projects, self certification for townhomes, and professional self certification for commercial projects.

These are important steps, but more progress is possible and needed. The transition to the new HNL build system will be a key test of whether we can expand and strengthen this momentum. The central point is rooftop solar and energy storage systems are simple projects that are standardized and safe relative to other projects.

They make up a high share of permit applications, but with today's technology, they do not need to be processed like large complex construction projects. Modern permitting software can automate reviews and new UL certifications ensure that equipment is is tested to the highest safety and reliability standards.

Mr. Mold, please summarize your testimony. Thank you.

This means solar permits can be processed faster at lower cost with stronger safety checks and better code compliance. On behalf of HSEA, I just want to thank you for organizing this proceeding. It's super important and thank you for the opportunity to testify.

Thank you so much. Anyone else in Zoom wishing to testify? Seeing none, we're going to move on to our physical space. Anyone here wishing to testify? I apologize. Does that microphone work? Could you please move to the podium? Thank you. Please state your name.

Aloha everyone. My name is Greg Misakyan. Gregory or Greg. I've been in this room many times and I currently serve as the President of the Kokua Council, which is an elder advocacy organization in the state since 1972. I also serve on some other boards and I'm a previous Waikiki Neighborhood board Member. I'll be very brief.

I submitted an 11 page written testimony so you can read what I don't have time to say today. I'd like to tell you much more in the future. I will say this.

I have no confidence right now in the Honolulu City and County of Honolulu Department of Planning and Permitting at my condominium Association where I serve as a Director and today I'm only speaking on behalf of myself. We have many issues at our building.

We have for years and I've emailed and asked for assistance and I get almost none. I get the opposite. So we currently have a project that's being done improperly. I'm going to hopefully be able to hand two emails to you, representative Legend, so that you can see these and share with the group later.

With that said, I'm here to offer support to help for the future for the Department. I have an engineering background, very diverse. I included some of that in my testimony. And with that I'll end. I know you're very busy today. I am available later and I would like to speak on. Hopefully I'll have another opportunity.

When you get to the pigs.

Yeah, we do. You can look over here.

Could you please mute. Okay. Thank you. Okay. And thank you, Greg. Thank you very much, Greg. Thank you for your testimony. We will definitely make sure that you are involved in the process. Anyone else in the physical space wishing to testify? All right, seeing none at this moment, testimony is closed.

We will now transition to Maui County and you will have 20 minutes to present followed by 10 minutes for questions. Maui County, please proceed.

All right. Good morning. Good morning. Hello everybody. My name is Jordan Molina. I'm the Director with Public Works for the County of Maui. Been with our office since 2019. And so some General information about how we're structured here in Maui County Department of Public Works. We have three divisions.

Our Engineering division, our DSA, our Development Services Administration and our Highways division. And so our DSA program is our branch that handles our construction permitting and our building code compliance for building, plumbing and electrical permits. Our DSA also serves as a coordinating agency for all agencies that tag their responsibilities to county. Maui County building permits.

And so we receive applications and handle the routing and the issuance of building permits for the County of Maui. Next slide please. So recently the county implemented a new software system for our permit management which we've coined maps. So Maui's automated planning and permitting system. The developer is Tyler Technologies.

We launched this program in April of 2022 which replaced our long standing previous system known as Kiva. So the new system is fully digital where, yeah, basically absolutely no paper is handled nowadays. It's all through the system electronically. And so there's the two modules, which is the customer side where applicants will submit and monitor the progress.

And then there's the back office which is where the agencies manage their reviews through that portal. Next slide please. So some of the advantages and benefits we've seen with this fully electronic system is of course ability to apply at any time, from any location, travel and wait times at our permitting office.

Previously we had to come through paper. And so the digital system eliminated that whole workflow from our staff's duties. Real time progress tracking, automated notifications, as Status or reviews change and are updated in the system. And elimination of printing costs for the county side.

Eliminating physical storage space of plans and records, the physical routing, carrying plans from one office to the other. More consistent and improved record keeping within the system and ability to enhance our reporting and analytics of our processes. Next slide please.

So challenges and inefficiency, of course are it issues which can arise now and then both in terms of, you know, Internet outages as well as issues with the vendor systems or upgrades to systems that also affect the availability of the system and creates downtimes versioning, which is quite the challenge I think with electronic plans, managing multiple versions of plans and being able to maintain awareness of which agency is handling which version of a plan set.

And then like I mentioned earlier, just yeah, having that online connection, which is a challenge, particularly with older generation applicants or people with poor Internet connection situations. So some data on our building permits. Maui County, we average around 1300 building permits a year and that's from application to issuance.

The scope of permit can range greatly from demolitions, repairs, alterations and new construction. I'll even add the site conditions that vary and make contribute to complexity of reviews. So someone building on unimproved land versus someone building in a fully developed subdivision are two different types of reviews.

So also the scale and the scope can very, very much range. You know, simple sheds and walls to homes, to hotels, commercial structures, restaurants, you know, larger, more complex that require, you know, more systems, more aspects of the code review to be applied. Next slide please. So the overview of the process here.

So we have the application process where you submit through applicants will submit through maps. On the customer service side, there's an initial review undertaken primarily by our permit Clerk staff. And that's really a completeness check of the application that all the documents required are there, all the required fields are appropriately completed and fees are paid.

From there we engage in agency review, which is when we route the plans and the permit documents to the various reviewing agencies for their review and comment. And then finally there's the final review, which is after all the agency review comments have been resolved.

Our permit Clerk staff will do the final check to make sure everything has been reviewed and approved and then collect final permit fees. Next slide. So I'll kind of walk you through what our maps interface looks like over the next few slides so we can go to the next one.

So here's a screenshot of what the customer side sees when they create an account and come into maps. And so depending on what they're seeking to do they'll have the buttons to choose from, so. Next slide, please. So this next page is where we start the permit application.

They can select the various type or whichever permit type applies to their application. For building permits, we have them created into three categories, which is our new additions, alterations, temporary permits, and demolition permits. Next slide, please. The next step is specifying the location for the application. You know, where the proposed structures are going to be located.

Next slide, please. Next step is including the permit details, including information such as the description of the project or the project name and project valuation. Next slide, please. Here they'll be adding the contacts to the case.

And so this will be, you know, typically your owner, your design team, the contractors, anybody that's on this permit case that either needs access to records or was looking to be notified with the automated updates that Maps provides. Next. So the next size is additional information on the permit.

So scope of work, the type of structure and its proposed use size, the utility service situation, and any sort of grading or site work information that is applicable to the build.

So the next section is where documents are uploaded, owner's authorization, the actual construction plans, any supporting reports or calculations, and any other related forms that may be required depending on the type of building permit being pursued or the type of build being pursued with the permit. This is the routing matrix.

So this is a summary, or not the summary, but the actual directive on which agencies we review which type of permits. And so you can see across the top, you know, the dozen or so agencies that we have to engage with and the dozen or so different types of permits that we get through our system.

And each one has a different routing path that it goes through depending on the agency's interest or oversight over those particular types of permit applications involved. And so this is, I guess, you know, taking a moment here. I think this exhibit illustrates the complexity of the building permit process.

And so one of the things I've encountered is people just saying, make it easier, fix it, make it go faster. It's not that simple because we don't have oversight over all these items. These are all independent provisions of law. These are all independent enforcement agencies that have their oversight and responsibilities.

And so it's not as simple as just telling them all, get out of the way. Next slide, please. So this is the dashboard for the customer service side, their portal. They can view the summary information for their permit applications and they can see the changes as status for their various applications.

You know, the first one in the attention is where they'll get notices on actions that have been taken on their application so they can clearly see or find where they can review the status of their permits and actions needed by the applicant. So next slide please.

So this slide is just a screenshot of the review portion where you can see all the various agency comments and the statuses of their reviews. And so of course, you know, red indicating a follow up is needing green. Green means it's good to go. Lack of color means it's still pending with a review.

And so customers see these as soon as they're updated in the map system and can, you know, real time track the progress of their permit reviews.

So the strategy we've taken to address the issue of versioning or which version of plans you are is by more or less holding out until we collect all the agency comments, at which point the applicant is then allowed to resubmit their files back into their case with the comments that they received from agencies addressed and the plans and the supporting documents revised as needed.

And so all those documents are in this tab here for them to be uploaded into the system. And then upon receipt, our staff then will reroute and restart the workflow for those agency reviews once we verify that the resubmission has been completed by the applicant.

And then from there we restart the review process for the second round and subsequent rounds as may be needed to complete the review and address all the agency comments. Next slide.

So that kind of wraps up a quick walkthrough of, you know, the actual permit process for the applicant side of things, touching on some of the challenges or inefficiencies that we see on the applicant and the owner side altering designs. This always creates problems depending on the extent of alteration.

Those, you know, you can't just move doors and windows that simply, those are critical building code aspects and or changing the footprint of your structure last minute. These are significant impacts on the review. And so there's a lot of frustration with people thinking they can just make these simple, what they perceive as simple changes in the process.

But that does cause delays and re reviews, which can be a source of frustration. Timely payment of fees is another one. Lack of funds in terms of them being prepared or ready with their financing to actually implement construction in time with their permit issuance not being committed to what they're actually building.

So using us to kind of vet ideas or. Yeah, not being fully prepared with the plans they submit.

And unfortunately there is a range of quality among design professionals and people get into trouble when they, you know, as with most things, you get what you pay for and so sometimes cheaper design Professionals can cause frustrations in the review process.

For the design professional side, again, you know, a lot a big challenge we fight with internally is resubmissions from poor plans or substandard plans, delays in the design, professionals addressing comments, or failing to address comments and resubmittals. That is a common issue.

We encounter drafting services being rubber stamped so where people will hire draftsmen as a way to save money and they have a partner architect who won't really do the plan review well, will just stamp off and submit. And we encounter a lot of comments on those types of plans, which unfortunately just creates frustrations for the applicants.

And then of course, lack of code knowledge with being aware of code updates, local amendments as well, if you know the designer is not experienced in the jurisdiction they're submitting applications for, which can translate to re reviews. Next slide, please.

So some of the challenges on our side, you know, just the number of codes we need to balance our plan reviewers are expected to be, you know, experienced in the building code, residential code.

Now we have existing building code, and then we also have the energy code come into play not too long ago, as well as the updates of these codes every three years. So that does put a pressure on the staff to be able to be efficient in light of a continuously changing process.

Not to mention, you know, things on top of that like local codes look like county amendments to our county code that try to direct the building permit process outside of your international building codes and similarly at the state level, where state law chooses to direct these building permit processes and forcing us to have to then pivot to make adjustments to accommodate those changes.

Staffing, of course, like everyone else has said, vacancies continue to be a challenge. Finding people with appropriate experience is a struggle. Since my tenure, I mean, we've had 50 plus years of experience cycle out under my time. And you cannot just replace that very easily.

The number of review agencies becomes a challenge too, just because, like I mentioned previously, every one of those agencies have their responsibilities and they don't necessarily align or support expedited permit processing just because there's different priorities being applied by those agencies in their reviews.

Then like specific to alterations and additions, having to conduct the research to figure out what the existing structure is, is it a legal structure? Are there issues that we have to account for when we do alterations and additions to existing structures? Next slide, please. So here's a table summarizing our permitting staff.

And so this is focused primarily on just our, again, our building permit side doesn't include our electrical, plumbing or civil team. So we struggle to stay fully staffed. We're okay right now, but it's always a revolving door, and which is a challenge because you can't just plug and play people.

It takes time to learn our systems, learn the codes and develop that expertise, which adds to the challenge of trying to, you know, staff up. And I think that's my last slide for this morning. Appreciate you folks attention. Thank you.

Thank you, Jordan. All right, we're going to move on to questions, and we have 10 minutes for questions. Anyone wants to start us off, let's go with Dean.

Thank you. Jordan, Quick question. Do you folks have a expedited process for affordable housing projects?

We do. So when a project gets a workforce housing agreement executed with the county, we become notified and we notify our review agencies. And really that just means they get put to the top of the pile.

Doesn't always translate that way directly, but it gives us the ability and the authority to prioritize those projects and to nudge along the other agencies to remind them that those are priority projects for their review.

Thank you, Christine.

Thank you. Jordan, Just question, you were talking about. What building permit process is, but doesn't. That include the planning division, too? So, like, how much of that is that all concurrent or is it, you know, planning division first, then you go into the dpw?

No, we run it concurrently. So if you recall that routing matrix when we launched the agency reviews that'll go through all those agencies concurrently for their review.

Thank you, Brian.

Then Rep. Yeah, this may be a. Little premature or maybe too late, but let's just get right to the point. I'd like to hear from each of the directors. What do you think is your biggest bottleneck and the reason for it for in the in the permitting process?

So regarding your question, we'll go with Jordan and then we'll just stop there and move forward from that. Go ahead, Jordan.

I mean, I guess outside of getting into the specific areas of review and particular laws of a particular agency that may frustrate the process, I mean, just the ability to staff and reorganize our structure to be effective is my biggest my biggest headache, like fighting with our personnel Department to reorganize or to compensate, to be competitive in this area is my hugest frustration generally.

Thank you. Rep.

Thank you. Chair thank you, Mr. Molina, for being here. Two questions. One is, you heard it earlier. What is the shelf life of their construction permit? How long is it good for? And then my second question is Hawaii County has implemented a permit or plan. Review fee when they Submit. Does Maui County have the same?

Generally our permits do have a five year expiration date from issuance. And so that's kind of a hard deadline. We maintain there is some consideration we give depending on the status of the build. You know, if the thing's almost done, we're not going to make somebody.

You know, we're trying to get the projects done, we're not trying to keep people tied up. But generally there's a five year expiration and that's to kind of address changes in code that may occur over that period of time.

And then we do have a design plan review fee that we apply to each building permit in addition to the permit fee itself.

All right, any other questions? Morgan?

Yes. I wonder if you could comment on working with a plan review consultant like Fourleaf on building permits. Is that carried over to work within the Department, working with them and maybe just talk a little bit about that process?

Sure, yeah. So as a result of the wildfires and anticipating the surge of rebuilt permits, our team at DSA did successfully procure third party services and we ended up selecting four Leaf. And they handle primarily, they are focused on our building code review, so electrical, plumbing and building.

But we did were able to expand them to do our wastewater, so our water various, you know, to some extent, our planning reviews also. And so that's turned out to be successful.

I think the biggest lift was getting them onboarded and, you know, having our processes scoped up clearly enough to be able to give to a vendor for them to be able to, you know, understand and implement. And then there's some growing pains along the way.

And so that implementation time is probably the biggest lift of, you know, getting all your ducks in a row and getting them, you know, to be consistent with how you operate. Because, you know, the first, the first few months it was a lot of people calling going, what's going on over here?

You guys never used to check for this and never used to check for that. And so having to kind of refine those aspects of it.

And so so far we found it very successful in being able to maintain, you know, the sanity of our staff and to even just keep up with the volumes that we've been seeing from Lahaina. We did recently extend that into our regular queue.

And so we've been slowly ramping up again, Four Leaf to assist us with our building permits. That is limited to just our building code review at this point in time. Thank you.

Jennifer.

Aloha, Jordan. Mahalo for your presentation. I know Bluebeam and Maps has a Collaborative function that allows real time reviews between reviewers of the county and, and architects and engineers. To your knowledge, is that ever used? Do you know if that's ever been useful?

To my awareness, we haven't been able to really leverage Bluebeam to that extent. The coordination of multiple comments on this single plan file electronically and just organizing, you know, color coding, understanding how to read it, versioning, all of that, we haven't been able, we haven't broken through yet.

So we don't use Bluebeam to that extent at this time.

Any others wishing to ask the question? Lee.

I have two questions. First of all, thank you for addressing the question I was going to ask about staffing but kind of in the ideal world, if you were fully staffed, would you have enough staff funded staff positions to operate for the scale of Maui for.

And this is kind of a genuine, this is a genuine question because I'm not quite understanding if like five plan examiners is the right scale for the scale of Maui. And I have another question after that.

I guess in the current economic cycle we're in and the volumes we've been in really since COVID it's probably a little low because we do have a significant backlog we're still working through in large part caused by our maps integration which set us back significantly as well as coupled with the loss of, you know, several 30 plus year experience staffers.

And so we were struggling to recover in that regard. But I think with the augmentation from the four Leaf and with some of the changes we've made in our, in our structure, you know, I feel if we can get fully staffed and trained up with experienced people, I think we can have a handle on it.

So yeah, I guess that I'll stay with that for now. Thank you.

I appreciate that. I think I'm just looking at the numbers between what was presented in the Hawaii county with 20 examiners, I know that inclusive of electrical plumbing. But trying to rationalize the discrepancy in numbers. The second question I had is regarding the point you made about permit applications coming through sometimes just simply to vet feasibility.

So one of the conversations on Maui that is recurring is resources such as water. How much of the data needed to vet ideas is publicly available and how much requires an application going through the process before getting the determination that there is or is not enough water or any infrastructure in that, in that case.

I mean I can't speak to our water Department specifically, but I mean generally people should. I mean, I guess I don't know how to best.

I mean, what I would do is I would go to that agency beforehand to kind of at least get an early consultation to talk through what their awareness of my property and what I'm trying to do to get a sense of what I, what I might anticipate. I know a lot of people don't do that.

And so they get caught at agency review finding out that they have this significant problem. And so I guess that's my General guidance is you got to, to a lot of extent, you have to be proactive in trying to navigate and, and get your answers. Because we are also so short staff right now.

It is really a squeaky wheel operation where people have to advocate for themselves because we are undermanned and overloaded to be able to just, you know, accommodate everybody to the extent we want to.

All right, one closing question before we. Or none. Up to you guys. All right, it looks like we are done with the questions. Jordan, thank you so much for answering them and your presentation. Thank you. We're going to move on to city and County of Honolulu.

You will have 20 minutes to present, followed by 10 minutes for questions. If you don't mind, please step up to the podium and director, start whenever you're ready.

Thank you. Thank you. Good afternoon, everyone. I was wondering, can I use the PowerPoint and a clicker because it kind of goes through.

Yeah, Maybe let's take recess just to figure out the technical part. Recess.

We are back from recess and at the moment we have city and County of Honolulu for their presentation.

Thank you Chair. I'm Dawn Apuna, Director of the Department of Planning and Permitting. Thank you for this opportunity to provide this presentation. Unfortunately I had some animations to help kind of walk through, but it's somehow not working or I didn't save it properly. So I'll just go through the slides.

So this is our building permit process and just to start from the second column, online application upload to HNL Build. So HNL Build, we launched on August 4th and we're still within the implementation process and will be for at least the next three weeks where we will refine the process and make sure everything is working properly.

So through our process you would upload your application or you would start the application process through HNL Build. And we are connected to evolve E plans as well. And that's a direct connection. Whereas before in our old POSSE system we did have e-plans and they were kind of more separated out from there.

The red cycling symbol, you go into prescreen and that's where all of your formatting of the plans, et cetera is checked for. And then you go through a multi agency code review. The different agencies outside of DPP within DPP, for example commercial projects go through mechanical, electrical and building.

And then we also have outside agencies like HFD, DOH, SHIPD and then once we make our comments, it's sent back to the applicant to address all the comments. And so that's why we have this cycling symbol because it is review cycles.

So if you have really great plans and everything passes on a first round, you could get your permit within one review cycle. On average we're looking at more around two to five review cycles for applications and that is a lot. And when you have applications that are like 69 review cycles, there's something wrong there.

And so once you get, you meet all the codes then you go to permit issuance and that's where you get your, you pay there, there is a payment and you have to provide like contractor statements etc, and you get your permit. And then from there inspections take place.

And then this first column, so this is going to be soon implemented. It is the AI that we're using with CivCheck and it's a guided review for single family new, new build alterations and additions. And then on the commercial side will be for tenant improvements.

So right now for SIV check we are doing a soft launch with mostly designers that come through a lot on residential projects and they're working with the process and we're going to get some feedback on that. And then a few months or a couple of months after that we're going to open it completely for all applicants.

And this is a pre check process that happens and you're certified through CIV check and then it goes into. Then you apply for the building permit with the certification by SIV check. And this is going to cut down the number of review cycles because it will be much better met to code.

And what we really like about this AI system is that it guides the applicant. It's not just stick it in and tell us how to do it or is it right or wrong, it's it guides the applicant through the codes and let's educates the applicant about what's correct.

And we think that's very helpful when it comes to excessive review cycles that they're becoming better, they're better at doing the actual design of their projects. And then just to note, so we've been working with CivCheck for over a year. They did a pilot and now they're doing the soft launch.

They did a lot of research on what we do and what comes through and their evaluation about the data is that we've been. It's basically designed by corrections.

So a lot of plans that are coming in are being passed through or going through this because we're helping them to design their project when really what we want are well designed, 100% complete, as much decode as possible from the first application so that we don't have to keep cycling, which is certainly a multiplier effect on the time within the permitting process.

So I was going to kind of go through these one by one. But the blue represents the improvements that HNL build offer to us. So now there's greater parcel information and GIS based information for your parcel so you can know exactly what's there, what you can do. All permit types.

So whereas our old POSSE system basically processed just building permits, we now are able to have everything come through for over 60 different types of permits or approvals. Whether it's a conditional use permit, sma, everything that we do, subdivision approvals are coming through the H and L build process. Greater agency integration.

So there's direct linkage with say DCCA on contractor information and other agencies. And we'll continue to work with different agencies. I think we spoke to someone yesterday about how signature from HECO rather than the applicant going directly to Hico to get that, that we would be able to integrate that.

And so we're going to reach out to Hico and say hey, can you get into our system so that you can provide that as soon as an approval is made and we're not. The applicant isn't going back and forth.

Permit eligibility There's a lot of information in H and L build that can tell you are you eligible, what else do you need? Or maybe you're not eligible. Online payments and auto issuance, I don't know if you've seen but we've. We had a pneumatic tube just a few years ago. You know we're using like a.

That was like our payment and it's like physical payments that people are waiting for now all online. It seems kind of like okay, you should have been doing that already. But it's a major, you know, it's a major improvement for us and for the applicants. Landowner involvement and awareness is, is very key now.

People can't just say where's my permit? We have the ability and we are requiring landowners to have their emails as part of the registration so that they can get updates on their projects and they know they can go in and look at comments and see exactly what's happening with their project.

Where are my docs and information is required up front because we also have a problem with the permit is going through. Different approvals are being made by different agencies and then at the last minute zero, you're missing this form or you're missing this approval.

So if we get everything up at the beginning it's going to make for a much smoother process going forward. And then lastly the blue real time permit tracking. It's like the Domino's app where you know exactly when you, when the pizza starts baking. Quality control and then it's done.

So it has the same kind of bar across the top that tells you where exactly your permit is. And then for the white. So no more paper. So this is in the last few years, right?

In the last four years we finally went completely from paper plans which is a time SAP because they're literally moving physically these rolls of papers among agencies, but that is no longer allowed. And then the people.

We've been doing a lot for our people which is crucial, you know, like giving them more training for consistency on reviews, raising salaries where we can because we need to pay them what they deserve and we're competing with industry and it's very important that we're able to attract and retain people that do this job.

And also we have a third party company that is, that helps to supplement our reviews. They're based in California, but they do some of our electrical reviews and some single family.

And then lastly, quick permits, we've added a lot of quick permits so that it's an instant online permit as opposed to going through the same process and as more complex permits. So I just want to go over some basics because sometimes we jump right into permitting takes forever when we don't know the basics about the permitting process.

So at the very bottom, health and safety, that's what a building permit is for, simple as that. And I've seen legislation about shotgun shot clock rules, which I don't think makes sense because you can't just cut off a review and say, here's your permit and we're really trying to ensure health and safety.

Above that, ministerial building permits are ministerial. That means if you meet the codes then you should get your permit. It's not a discretionary permit where there's a lot of other factors involved or you know, community or council approval. And then above that, complex and varied codes.

We are dealing with very complicated and layers of codes that are involved. So, you know, we hear about people saying, well, why is the electrical looking at this in the mechanical plans? Because they do, they do affect each other. Different disciplines do affect each other. And then above that, residential and commercial again.

So in DPP there's two routes, single family and two family and simple types of building permits. And then the other route is commercial, so multifamily and then just larger, more complex. And to that, under the residential review, we have building plans examiners and they are basically the qualifications.

I think they just need a year or so of some, some kind of industry related experience. And then on the commercial side I talked about, it's our engineers. So mechanical, electrical and building. And these are our engineers. And above that. So we process anywhere from 14 to 16,000 building permits per year, just building permits.

And then lastly, and very importantly the applicant. And there are other factors that play a very important and major role in the building permit process. It is not just the building permit agencies. So this, this was supposed to be animated. So it's all screwed up.

But what I was trying to show was speaking to that there's other factors involved. It's been easy for people to think that DPP is this black box where you just put in your application and it sits there for years and who knows and it finally comes out. That's not the case. There is.

If you take away the red and the black, there's different factors. There's D PP, yes, we are like the clearinghouse for all these different approvals outside of DPP that we make sure that these things are checked off before you get the approval there's by these other agencies.

So other state agencies, you know, even HECO and other private agencies that sign off. There's the codes, as I had mentioned, the complicated codes and then the applicant themselves. So about a couple months ago we did just a. A shot in time about where are say there's about 6,500 residential permits in our system on this one day.

And if you did that one shot, you could see that 75% were with the applicant at that moment in time. And that's pretty average. So 75% it's with the applicant because they're actually, you know, there should be reviewing the comments, fixing the designs or, you know, they're holding onto it.

It's not that it's always with the other agencies or it's always with DPP. And then up there in the purple capacity is hugely important. I heard the questions for the last speaker.

Being able to properly pay them and then give them the right training and having enough numbers to cover the load that we get in permits is very important. So this is to. This is a graph I used to show because it's kind of dated now, but it's from 2010 to 2020.

And the black line is basically signifies our backlog of building permits. And actually it's come down from there. It's like it peaked and it came down.

But what this shows is that from about 2016 forward the backlog is going up and you can see the amount of city ordinance that directly affect building permits how there's just so many.

And I don't need to read all of them, but you can just see based on the so much more color on that end that we believe that that has affected the building permit process because whenever there's new ordinances or codes we. It's not just automatic. That is part of the review.

Staff need to understand how to interpret that, how to apply that. And the applicants themselves also need to have. Needs to know how do I design based on these new codes. And just to give you an idea, the monster homes ordinances, there were three different ordinances over just a couple of years. And I knew I've.

I've heard because I wasn't here at the time, that that was very troublesome to staff and applicants. In order to figure out what does this mean the far all that additionally SWQ, that is stormwater quality.

Back in 2018, we had to set up an entirely new branch that checks for stormwater quality and that adds signi did add significantly to the permitting time. We have been able to bring down that backlog. I think within a few days you can get your review done.

But these are, these are instances where we get just new codes and it is definitely disruptive and can slow down the permitting process. And then speaking to capacity, again, just to give you an idea in the blue, this is on our commercial side.

So originally, when I first started in DPP about four years ago, the electrical, number of electrical, mechanical and plans examining building, examining engineers, there were four each and I think five or six for the building. And that hadn't changed for years.

Even though the complexity of what we do and the volume changed, we didn't change the capacity to handle that. So we added those positions. We doubled the number of positions which is represented here. However, it's been very difficult to fill those positions. So had we been able to fill them, we could go even faster.

But the pay is, is. Is probably the biggest challenge. Private pays much more. And then you have the feds, you know, they're doing their work at Pearl harbor, they pay even higher. So it's. We, we have been able to do some shortage pay at the city level, but that is something that we're still struggling with.

So after two years since we added those positions, we continue to struggle with filling those vacancies. And then the building plans examiner, that's on the residential side, the ones that I spoke to before, we do pretty good with hiring, but it's hard to retain them.

And I think part of it, we do need to look at how those positions are described because they are very complex positions. They deal with angry public and they have a lot to deal with. So I think we, we're working on making sure that they're.

Their description fits what they do and that they're paid accordingly because we do have issues with retention. So we can hire them, we train them, but a lot of them, once you get into that kind of work, you become a lot more marketable, I think. But you also are.

Will leave us and then we have to start all over again. So I'm just going to cut to the chase. I know that this is about fixing the permitting process, but I did look at the other presentations and I think our processes are basically the same. If you look at it, we do the same.

It's exactly the same all the way through. So I just wanted to present what I think our Department needs to go even faster. So I think part of it at the bottom, inaccurate narrative. I get it.

DPP has had a bad history, a bad rep for, for many reasons, but we're really working hard on doing exactly what you want to make the permitting go faster. I know that a lot of the legislators, they hear from constituents like, my permit has been stuck forever and they're telling me it's DPP's fault.

And nine times out of 10, when we look at it, because now we can look at it exactly where it was for how long, this or that, the comments, it's with the design professionals or they're not addressing comments. And now with hnl, Build and our E plan system, you can see all of that.

So what is difficult is when we keep having to explain or we have to, we have to. It takes time and energy to do that. When really people should be asking their design professionals, you really hold them to it and say where. What's going on here? Because it actually comes back to them. But.

But you can save time and energy just to go directly to the design professionals. So myopic legislation. And I'm talking about, you know, the City Council, they're focused on a specific issue like monster homes. But then what are the repercussions from that? How does that affect our process? Capacity, hiring and training?

I mentioned that we need to add capacity. The applicant, again, it could be with the applicant. Code cycles are problematic because they're too short and we always have to adjust.

And then other agencies, like, we're doing as best as we can, but of course we hear about, hey, I know it's not with you, but what's going on with this agency, that's, that's taking a long time. So there's backlogs in other areas. So how the Legislature can help change the narrative. I talked about that. Like, we.

I think that DPP and the other agencies, they're doing the best they can with the resources they currently have. Yeah, we need more resources, but. But it's hard to always be on the, on the, you know, I don't know, just. I think it's hard for staff.

Like, that's the worst for me is when staff are treated badly, when it's not their fault and they're doing their best. And it takes the whole community just understand what's going on, what's really going on so that we can all get to the same place. So pilot funding for hiring and retention.

So if this is about building so much housing within two or three years, I'd say give us a certain amount of money for A certain amount of time so we can pay the engineers to hire and even the incumbents that are in there to. So that we can quit, just jump on it.

The more people we have, the better be cognizant of misguided legislation. Like I said, that shot clock legislation, we spend a lot of time kind of explaining or fighting, but we just have to work together on what the Legislature intends to do and what you're working with.

As far as what the county's trying to do, clarify engineering licensing.

We came here for a couple of years about just making sure that government plan review engineers could be treated or could know exactly what that means and that they could work at DPP, come out of uh, as a graduate and get the right experience so that they could sit for licensing and then extend code cycles.

If we extended them by six years, I think that would be helpful so that staff isn't using so much time on learning new codes that takes a significant amount of time to adjust to and then again adding capacity to other agencies so that they also can work through and get rid of their backlogs.

So with that, that's the end of my presentation and I'm available for any questions. Thank you.

Thank you, Director. All right, open for questions. Senator Hashimoto, thanks, Dawn, for being here.

Great, great presentation. You know, I think if you could go back real quick on your staffing slide. You know, I think we, we've talked about this before and I always talk to, when I talk to people, you know, I always say dawn says that she had a magic wand, it would be civil service reform.

But you know, that's. Which is really difficult. But I think, I think there is something to this and maybe you can kind of explain what you've done in your hiring area. Right? So I think there's redescriptions, there's. You can upgrade some of these positions. I don't know how long you've, you know, along in that process you are.

But I think, I'm not sure if we're going to straight out give you money, but I think we can do a pilot to kind of figure out what can we do in these hiring. Right. So.

So there's models like you look at the University of Hawaii, they create a team of exempt professionals to deal with some of their building issues. Right. To. To do the renovations at Manoa. But I think, I think if you can tell us what exactly you need and we can pilot it, I think we're willing to try.

Because you guys haven't used the EP right? For for some of your hiring the governor's housing EP?

No, we haven't.

Okay, but. But what is it, do you think, within working, within the constraints of civil service, do we have to go negotiate with the union to kind of figure out, okay, can we get a pilot exemption too, so you can hire all these exempt positions, or do we have to then, you know, give differentials to these positions?

I think we just need a little bit of guidance so we can kind of know, because I do believe a lot of it is people driven. Right. And that's why I always tell people, you need to stop updating these codes because people get confused. Right. But nobody believes us.

And they still want to, you know, especially the architects. They continue on us to adopt the new code. Code every single time. So everybody gets confused because at the end of the day, it's people that need to interpret it. So. So I just wanted to dig a little bit deeper on that.

Yo, that's, that's a good question. I think it's spot on. It. Yeah, we, the civil service system, it. We. It is very hard to do a lot of things that we need to do or that we should be doing. So, yeah, I think pilot program with the unions, the.

See how we can do this in a, in a limited amount of time. I think, I think that's our best shot. But we do need to. The, it's the pay. Like, that's the. When I asked my staff what is it like, that's. They. People won't even come for an interview just knowing what the salary range is.

So, so what do you think is. What is the deficit? Is it 20%, 30%?

I'd say closer to 30% like for. Or more for the feds, you know, competing against the feds.

But, but I guess for, for a good example is like your permit clerks. Like, you know, have we looked at trying to upgrade them and what would. And where are we in that process?

Yeah, we're. We're definitely looking at that because they are basically clerks, you know, so we have a position title called Engineering Support Techs. I think that's closer to what they do. It's a lot more complicated. And what they have to. I mean, they're reading code, they're interpreting code, they're applying code as well. So we are, we are.

We're working with our HR Department to, to redescribe positions. But if you were looking for something immediately, I do think some way that we can pilot and somehow navigate around some of the civil service rules, like the faster the better.

And I think when we do that and we see what, what the result is, that will better inform the civil service side about how do we move forward. But I think it's, you know, this is all this is. This is an immediate urgent situation.

So I think if we do it, and I know you don't want to just throw money at us, but we would be, I think the counties and us, we can work together to feel, figure out exactly how we would apply this that makes sense in a fair way with the goal of producing more and getting more housing created.

Okay, so maybe we can have a further conversation. But one last thing. With new Honolulu builds, are you able to take a look at and pull all the comments that you're getting and summarize what are the most common comments?

That's a good. So we can definitely pull all the comments. And I think there could be a way that we could do that. We could figure out what the. What the most common ones. And we can ask our staff too. They know, they know what the most common comments are.

Maybe like a FAQ page or something. Yeah. Most common mistakes. Yeah.

Thank you, Senator. All right, Any others? Councilwoman.

Thank you. Great question. Senator Hashimoto, I just want to comment. When you decide to do this pilot program, please include Maui. I think, though, what we're hearing.

Councilwoman, could you please put.

Yeah, I think what. Thank you. I think what we're hearing is I'm the budget chair. So every single Department that came before us.

Councilwoman, I need you to push.

Yes, okay. Every Single Department that came before us with the County of Maui always said their biggest problem is our personnel Department. And I would imagine that every single county has the same challenges because we're all under the same state kind of jurisdictions that they follow. And what we've done on Maui is this is not quite this.

But 911 dispatchers, they're HGA clerical. And so therefore they're so underpaid every year we've been incentivizing them by adding now they're up to $1,000 per month just to keep. We have a huge shortage of 911 dispatchers, but we are having to do this with all walks of all departments that ask us because they know the needs.

And I would imagine that this is happening statewide. We have a really big problem, which is probably bigger than this Department. And Senator Hashimoto that walked out. Please include Maui County in this pilot program. Thank you.

Thank you. So, Members, just want to remind everyone. Let's focus to the presentation and the questions To Director. So who's next on Monica? zero actually Jordan and then Monica. I apologize.

Thank you so much. Director. My question is related to CIV check AI and it's very intriguing and I really appreciate you using technology in spaces. To address the shortage in staffing. But the question that I have is other agencies data hooked up or fed. Into Civ check AI or is it just DPP related data?

Yeah, it's just. I mean I don't even know if it. It's just DPP code related to the specific permit types that CivCheck is processing.

Okay. As a follow up question, do you know if there is any intention to look into whether other agencies data can. Be Fed into SIF check?

It can like we've asked them I think recently working with dhhl. They want us to help with with some of their projects. So we said I guess they follow state code. So we wanted to make sure that. And so they're inputting specific for dhhl.

Thank you. Thank you Monica, then Rep. And then Jennifer.

Hi Dawn. I appreciate you. I know a lot of these problems have started since the beginning of time and predates you. A lot of things in regards to, and maybe you can appreciate this with your background is that building code is law and these laws need to be interpreted.

So one of the biggest issues is the interpretation of these building codes. Right. And that adds to the delay. Also. You know, sorry, can you talk about the H and L build and some of the problems Because I know it doesn't matter whether you're a bank or you're a DPP.

Whenever you integrate or upgrade to new systems there's always going to be a lot of problems. I myself am waiting for my tco even though inspectors have signed off on it all. And then one comment is we do have HGEA Cheryl there.

I don't mean to put you on the spot but we do have somebody talking about staffing a lot too. So she's in the back there too if you want to participate in the conversation.

Right. Just so everyone knows, lists of Members are on the website at any point of time we can make comments. However, if we could just focus the valuable time that we have with Director and the questions and answers directed to you. Yeah. So please.

Yeah, those are great questions. So first building code, the interpretation. Yes, A.B. absolutely. I think what is helpful is when staff is able to sit down or have conversations.

You know, it it because I've sit in a lot of those meetings where it has to come down to a meeting and we all end up on the same page. But when we are have so much work, I think those conversations, those meetings are last on our list.

So the ability to add capacity will only will allow us to do that. I mean, that's one of our goals as DPP. Use more technology and fix a lot of what we do so that we can have more person to person contact with applicants to help them understand.

And I think that in itself, when they can work together face to face, it builds better confidence between the agency and the applicants that, you know, we're not trying to make it hard for you, we're just, this is how we see it.

So I think that that is how I see that we can deal with the building code interpretation as well as training. Training is super important. So like I said, we, we now have a lot more robust training required for our plan reviewers or even our inspectors, which will help with interpretation.

As far as the H and so HNO Bill, we launched on August 4, there have been some issues and like, you know, it's just a major implementation. There's so much data, right? Just years of data that are, we're trying to bring over to this new system.

It's not like when Posse, 28 years ago or whatever was first started. It's a new system. Everything's new is going in, so that's, that's easy. But we're going from one system to, to another. So we've had some data mapping issues and that kind of, kind of.

I know once it came out, even our staff were just very frustrated because they were looking into the system and they didn't see, zero, wait, I'm supposed to have an inspection today. What happened? So admittedly and even with the vendor, that was kind of a fumble, but we're working on it.

We're, we're in our fifth week of eight weeks of, what is it called? Just like full on, fixing bugs, smoothing it out and making sure that we stabilize the system. So there's still a few weeks ahead of us and before we get it stabilized. But yeah, it's amazing.

I didn't expect it to be so rough, but we're going to get there. We're going to get there. So we appreciate everyone's understanding. Thank you.

Yeah, thanks, Representative.

Thank you. Thank you, Dawn, for being here. And I really want to acknowledge you inherited a lot of problems and I am incredibly mindful of this transition. When Hawaii county went through it, migrating, legacy permits, everything you're talking about, we experienced and we were the first one to experience. I'm just here to say it'll get better.

It's going to take a while, but it will get better. I wanted to focus a little bit on your permit backlog and I really appreciated this graph specifically to your point about myopic permits, oftentimes legislation, just the sheer thought of the introduction of something new coming forces that. Or pushes design professionals and applicants to.

Shove something in anything just to hold. Place on that specific code cycle. I was also interested. I'll work on that a little bit more. But I was wondering if you had some data analysis that we could overlay across this as it relates to our banking industry.

I asked that question because another time we see a huge spike in permits is when interest rates are going from three and a half to five and a quarter and applicants, design professionals start getting anxious again. And I'm looking forward to working with you on the offline on that. But back to my same two questions.