Senate Standing Committee on Education

Good morning everyone. This is a joint briefing of the Committee on Ways and Means and Education. This morning we're going to hear from the Department of Education, Charter Schools, the Libraries, the School Facilities Authority, Executive Office on Early Learning, and the Department of Education. We will hear the fiscal biennium 26-27 budgets. So first up is the charter schools. Would you come up to the, and introduce yourself? Morning.

Chair, Vice Chair, and Members of the Committee. My name is Ed Noh. I'm the executive director of the Hawaii Public Charter School Commission. Thank you for having us. And with me is...

PJ Foehr. I'm the deputy director at the Charter School Commission.

Good morning. Happy New Year, everyone.

Happy New Year.

Would you like to introduce anyone else that you brought here today?

We also have Danny Vasconcellos, our financial director, and Deanne Goya, our early learning director.

Good morning. Okay, proceed.

All right, thank you. We'd also like to acknowledge our chair and vice chair for the Charter Commission, Dr. Makalapua Alencastre and Alex Harris and their support and our commissioners were able to do the chartering work needed in Hawaii. So thank you very much. I just wanted to first start off by saying it's an exciting time.

We are celebrating 30 years, acknowledging 30 years of legislation in the State of Hawaii specifically for charter schools. And significant because in 1991 is when the first legislation happened in the State of Minnesota, and Hawaii was one of the first 10 states in the nation to actually start adopting charter law.

So we actually have a great opportunity for the former Senator of Minnesota to be here in Hawaii next month. I want to thank Chair Kidani for helping post that meeting and lessons learned on a national scale of what we're doing in Hawaii, as well as lessons we can teach others across the nation.

So we have 38 charter schools currently within our portfolio. 17 here on Oahu, 14 in Hawaii, five on Kauai Island, one on Maui, and one on Molokai. And just as a reminder, we do have satellites in other states, but those would be the the main considered their main home base or their origins.

We also have, of those, 16 that are pre or kindergarten through 12th grade with seven more who have 12 grades. So over half of our charter schools do have that secondary distinction of graduating able bodied students to go and impact their communities and their world.

In addition to the submittal you received, there's a lot of great news we just received from Hawaii P-20 around the post secondary work. And at the behest of our chair and our commissioners, it's truly look at what our charter schools are doing, students are doing post graduation and beyond. So it's...

We have some again very encouraging news around that and happy to share more at a, at another time. For today we are really looking only at the two EDN 600 and 612. There is no actual budget request really. It's just a placeholder for per pupil formula. It is derived through the formula by through budget and finance.

And so it's really making sure that the money is going the appropriate places so that we can address specific actions that EDN 600 cannot do, as EDN 600 is distributed on a per pupil basis. The differentials, the hard to build, those are specific for certain staff members, and so that the per pupil is not the would not be the best way to distribute those funds.

So we've really been working hard with our partners to make sure that the monies get to the schools that we make sure we are addressing those needs for our teaching staff. So out of the 612, we do have here three items that I wanted to highlight and that would be the operations for the commission out of again EDN 612. Also the Early Education Learning program and Hawaii Keiki nurse. So today we have Danny Vasconcellos Jr.

He's our director of finance and administration, Deanne Goya, our early learning director, and also from the University of Hawaii, the Hawaii Keiki program, Dr. Deb Mathias appears to have answer really more specific questions that you might have. So really again our budget requests are there.

It's to seek additional funds for the part of the staff, our employee and immersion differentials, and also that internal transfer from EDN 600 to EDN 612. And again the expanded impact that Hawaii Keiki can have at our charter schools throughout the state. So we're really looking to expand the services because we've seen the benefits.

Dr. Mathias has and her team have great data around the impact of having Hawaii Keiki nurse on the campus and how it promotes student well being and the likelihood of students staying at school. So that's a really important service to have provided. So those are really the initiatives we have.

Thank you. Questions, Members? Okay. Yes, Senator Inouye.

Can you explain... You know, this is the first time I'm seeing this. The budget in brief, you know the impact fee share. Can you explain what that does? Yeah, the impact fee share balance. It's in your, it's in your... Yeah, it's in your budget brief. Okay. Impact fee share balance, is it. I'm not sure what table that is. If you click if you click on the budget.

I'm gonna invite Danny up to the mic.

And there are several schools notified, and there's the, I guess a lot of budget items in there. Can you explain what that is? Yeah. Well, you know what? Sorry. Sorry. That's. It's not this part. Sorry about that. Okay, but earlier you mentioned that. Did you say you're going to consolidate 600 into 612?

It's not a consolidation, but I'll let Danny explain the...

So for clarifying that, we're actually moving funds from EDN 600 specifically for the teacher differentials. That's the transfer that Executive Director Noh mentioned. So again, this is just specific to the teacher differential funds, as he explained. We've been working with Budget and Finance and working with our money committee with you all as well as House Finance on this for a couple of years. Money's going into EDN 600 usually have to be distributed on a per pupil basis, but these specific teacher differential funds are specifically for those eligible teachers in schools that are designated.

Have designated teachers, the hardest to staff, or the Hawaiian Immersion differentials. So we're essentially asking for a transfer of those funds from the per pupil side of the fence to the commission side of the fence, where we can then distribute it just to those schools that are eligible, that have teachers eligible for that, those differentials.

Okay, I have another question.

So just on the differential, so is that comparable to the DOE, using the DOE standards in terms of differentials for your teachers?

Yes, we follow the same eligibility requirements as well as the same geographic designations that the DOE follows.

Do you have another?

Yeah, one more. One more question. I had a bill last year regarding input from the charter schools with regards to their life of five years. And the question that came to, when I became The Senate District 1 Senator. And Big Island, as you know, what's the difference how many you have charter schools on Oahu? And Big Island has what? 14, yes. And so the communication request has been... Because some of them want to enlarge or fix up their buildings.

Because we don't contribute to providing funds. Yeah. For buildings, for charter schools. And so the ask is that they've been given notices when they apply for funds or an application to get financing from a bank or credit unions. It's too short a period. So the ask that we had.

And Senator Kidani did sign on that measure as well, but it got stuck somewhere with the money committees, so. But all they ask if they could get the extension to 10 years so they are able to, you know, get financing. And so that has been...

That's why many of the charter schools are not making improvements, you know, to their facilities. You know that they either have it purchased simple or leasing from another, but they want to make some improvements on their campuses. And the five years is a problem with the banks and financial institutions. So how do you feel about that? Because you guys got to make that decision, right? Or approve?

Yeah, I appreciate the question and the comments, and I know you support many charter schools in your district, so thank you for that. So we do follow the National Association of Charter School Authorizers. That's kind of as a gold standard for authorization. So NACSA is the leading entity that provides, again, principles and standards, best practices.

And we have in our current contract 4.0, we have the limit of 5 years, which is fairly, I would say fairly good, average nationally. There are other states that have beyond five year contracts, and that is something that we've had that discussion before and it's something we'll definitely look into.

Yeah. Will you consider increasing that to 10 years? Because it's not going to cost us any money. Right? All you're doing is increasing the five years to 10 years. What other, the other states that have that five years or is it... But you're saying other states have beyond the five years?

There, there are, there are a few. I could, I will get you the list of, maybe we can provide that, what other states.

Send it to the Committee Chair. But you know, if you guys don't mind, because I was going to, I think we're planning on reintroducing that measure again. But if it's something that you folks agree, maybe we don't have to do a bill.

But you know, like our Chair says, you know, if you have a plan, you don't have a plan. But if we don't, you know, introduce a measure, then the discussion will stop right here today, you know. So what I'll do then is continue to introduce the measure for this year then. But I appreciate your, you know, bringing it up because board has to approve. Yeah. And you can communicate with the Chair as well as send us some information.

Well, regarding the Board of Education approval. So our commissioners are the ones who do the approval of the contract. And the current contract is referred to as contract 4.0, and that one does define the term limits in five years. So it would take, yes, a revision.

And I do have a couple of charter schools, they're on the hold with the financing company. So there's applications already being processed, but hopefully they're just waiting to see if we're going to make any changes. Appreciate it. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Director Noh, and to your team. A few questions relating to federal funds. So in your report, it's noted that you received 31.1 million in ARPA funding, but only spent roughly about 687,000. Can you explain to the committees why that is?

And then second as a follow up to that, what has been your average amount of federal funds? I see for this budget request, it's 1.8. So are you anticipating with a new administration at the federal level for those funds to come down or remain the same? And how would that impact your budget?

Well, I will start it and Danny will finish it because he has the finer details. We definitely have been watching. We are participating in some around state education agencies across nations to see what is the pulse model become in the new administration. So we're all definitely in a wait and see and that's what I can offer right now is different models that we're trying to work out.

To start off the difference in the amount of funds spent and how much you receive. The commission serves as a pass through for federal funds to our charter schools. So the DOE receives the funds from the federal government, then it allocates it to the commission, and then the commission sends it out to the charter schools.

So in this case you can see the majority of federal funds that come into the commission go out to the charter schools. So that's the reason for that difference in terms of amount of money spent versus what we received. Last year for 23-24, it was a little bit of a anomaly here because of the American Rescue Plan funds, the ESSER 3 funds. So that huge influx of funds raised that amount to $30 million. Usually we get about 10 million in total.

Are those funds lapsed or are they still utilize or draw down on those funding funds?

Those funds were distributed out to the charter schools. We worked with the department to ensure that the charter schools...

So you've used all 31.1 million of that?

That's the... Yes that went out to the charter schools for use for their...

Okay, because in the report it says you've only draw down 587,000.

That's how much money the commission itself expends versus, like I said, the amount of funds that come in and then we pass it to the charter school.

Okay, Just want to make sure you weren't leaving any funds on the table. Thank you.

I have a question on table 11, your vacancies. I noticed that you have quite a few vacancies like 26 school teachers, page 19, 27 EAs. How do you account for that and how is that impacting your schools?

Yeah. Again, I'll start Danny, we'll give the finer details. So this is specifically referring to our early learning. Early learning program was distributed as positions. So of the 30 classrooms, we are building out the 30. So we have the four that will be actually opening up any moment now at Parkway Village we're really excited about being the first pre K only charter in the Kapolei area, as well as for the next several years those classrooms being designated for early learning.

So how many early learning? This 30 classrooms are going to get these 26 or 27 EAs and early learning school teachers?

So as part of the Ready Keiki initiative, actually it's an allocation for classroom but when it was translated it got translated into positions. It's really an allocation per classroom, not a per pupil basis. And I'll let Danny again take us to the fine details.

And my apologies Vice Chair, It should be 26 and 26. My eyes probably added an extra one. But yes, as Director Noh said, those positions are specific to those early learning classrooms. So as we work with the different early learning agencies to build out and expand the pre K program, those positions are specific to the early learning pre K expansion.

So these are all distributed by the school, these positions?

Yes. When an early learning classroom opens.

When is a timeline for any one of those opening?

So we do actually have the timeline of 30 schools. And again we have the four opening up this later this month hopefully or in the next month as well as the applications for other pre K only charters that are in currently. And Deanne Goya, we can leave you the projected timeline of all the schools being addressed.

And for the current year fund, we are working with the Department of Budget and Finance on lapsing, what funds have to be lapsed for those positions.

So you are at least trying to recruit. I mean you're not waiting until the schools are open and then recruiting. You're going to have teachers there, ready to go when you open.

So yes. So we've been working with SFA and the Keiki First initiative to ensure that we have classrooms. We have 14 classrooms that are already have designs going to open up within I think two years or a year and a half, depends on how quickly we can get the restructuring of the the facilities taken care of.

We also have currently running right now, applications for 9 pre K only classrooms. So perhaps pre K only charter schools that would function 9 classrooms with the intent of having those open next year, next school year. So that would be in July of 2025. We have the current classrooms that are in play right now.

When Park View opens, that'll be four. So we have extended plans for the 30 classrooms. It's been slow getting it going this year. That's why those positions are vacant now. But over the next year, year and a half, we should have most of those, if not all of those filled.

Thank you.

You don't want to start filling and then just deploy them to existing schools, and when the school is ready, they can transfer over?

Yeah, that's a great question. This is definitely one of the challenges of the facilities discussion we had earlier of not having open available classrooms. A lot of our charter schools are to capacity. They are in different types of spaces that aren't like converting schools.

I mean, I can see maybe Neighbor Island that might be difficult because it could be far, but in maybe some other areas, they could have additional staff for now until the new school is open and then they can transfer. Just to start getting people on board.

Yeah, I, I would still say... and Deanne actually worked with all the existing schools. It was coming down to capacity issue. Available classrooms to be converted for early learning.

No, no, no, no, no. What I'm saying is that the existing school, just overstaff them. And, and then when the staff, when the new school is over, you open, then you move this. So it's almost like a training period. So they get, they get distributed, they start working in the field. It's almost, especially if they're new teachers. Get acclimated. And then when the new school is open, they transfer. They're ready. They're not starting from scratch. They're not learning from scratch. Is that kind of what you mean?

Yeah. Are you coordinating with the Early Learning office? Because they also should be certified. So, you know, maybe it's this training period as, as the Chair says, that they can be in a school, but they're training, they're learning, and then they're ready to go.

Once the new school is open.

Yeah. So I would suggest you...

I mean, especially if you have the positions already, then you might as well use it. Hire people, because you got. Takes so long to hire. So just hire them, overstaff a couple schools at that time. It's not really overstaffing because they're training while they're there. And then when the new school is open, they transfer. And like I said, that might be a little more difficult in rural areas because it's far, but in some areas it might work.

Yeah. And the licensing is a very good point.

You might want to do it in the schools that you know you're going to open up so that you overstaff, as Chair says, but you're training them and they're ready to go when the...

When the new school is open.

Thank you. You guys have both asked my questions already. But to expand on it, can you let us know where these campuses are and where you're expanding? Yeah. And also what the current enrollment is and how much further they're going to expand, would you expect?

School, the type of expansion, and the number of classrooms. The number of classrooms, if we times that by 20 students per class, that would be the number of new slots available.

Some of us don't belong to Oahu, but can you tell us what, where these schools are? What islands?

Sure... is in Hilo... is Kauai.... Oahu.

Okay.

The Pre K only, the blue bar. The new applications that's occurring right now as we speak. So depending on where the new applicants come from. So that's ending.

Which island are they? You don't know?

It's a statewide and actually application closes on the 20th of this month. We'll know more information then.

Oh, oh, I see. This is a slot for an application.

So the Pre K only charter. Okay, so so this is like for nine classrooms. So it could be in a number of schools.

So this could be several instead of...

Number school, number of islands. It's brand new. We're seeking, we're seeking to open them August if possible. So it's a quick turnaround.

So you better start hiring.

Yeah, they will hire. So we want them to have a charter, and they will hire the people that fit their mission and vision.

You want to be sure they're trained and licensed too for this.

That's part of the application. Yes.

So the next one is Hana, I guess Molokai. Is where? Well, yeah, and also too, can you give us more specific, like the number of classrooms in each area. But what the new expansion. This is expansion or the current number?

Oh, I guess what she's asking is then what's the total number if this... So you say here number of classrooms.

Yeah, the total numbers on the bottom. 30 expansion. That's the expansion funding.

No. So these, these new... This new construction, this is completely new. Right. We're not adding on.

The new allocation. So we do have some that will be within embedded with some schools.

So that's what she's trying to figure out. Which are the ones that are additional classrooms versus new schools?

Okay, so we start at the top. Nā Wai Ola is connected with an existing charter that but a different new construction, new location.

So what, how many classrooms do they they have now?

So they currently have three.

Okay. So then their total will end up being seven. Okay.

... currently is not having. So they add on one new.

Okay.

Does not have any right now. So that's four new.

Okay.

... has three existing. So that would be five new.

So eight total. Okay.

And then the new pre K has the new pre K only charters they have... As mentioned, this is in addition to the... Maui. So that would be three existing plus the 1, and then the... that would be five plus... So that'd be total for now, eight.

Eight. Okay.

So seven existing plus 18 or eight?

No. So... has three now, then if you look at the top of the list in red, they have four construction, in the construction process. And then... has one and they will add on two new. So the total of three.

Okay.

At Parkway Village is new. So they have zero currently and four new.

What was the last one? How many?

So zero current and four new.

Yes. Okay.

So we don't select the charter schools. They come to us and they tell us if they express interest and having a pre K program. We don't select. So if they want to have a charter school, whatever they have, then they make that request to us.

If I have a follow up to your comments, is that okay? Yes. Yes. Okay. With that said, they make the choice, then they have the facility then.

Right.

Okay. Because the question is going forward, when you make selections, is there room in that particular newYs, the school that they'll be adding on as your, our pre-K? Yeah. Okay. Because you don't put a, you don't approve a pre-K program into a place where there's no room for them because you need a space, right? Okay. So all these charter schools have the space and they're ready to go. Okay, thank you, Chair.

Follow up, follow up. So these new construction. So they're not tapping any of the, the state funds. They're coming up with their own funds.

They're participating.

Right, right, right, right. So I think that's clear because what she was asking was you're not giving them any funds to build the new classrooms. And you said you're not, but you are. You're giving them money to build these classrooms. That's correct? Facility classrooms.

SFA is building it.

Right. So that, that's state funding. So you are getting money to build these new classrooms?

It's just not passing through you.

Okay. Yeah. I think we got to be clear because I think the whole... With charter schools, historically, you've never gotten facility funding. Right. So this is a change in what you're doing.

But you're not getting the funding. You're just... They have the funding. You're getting the building.

Getting the building.

But it's a one time... It's a one time infusion. Right. So you shouldn't count on this in the future. Right. Yeah. Thank you.

Just add one comment that we do look at the capacity of the request, the capacity of the school, adequate facilities, the need. And she works with the school directors and the governing boards to help facilitate that.

Okay. I had a question. You had a question? I had a question about the Honelo study because I noticed in your report it just talks about native speakers of Niʻihau. But I thought when we had the site visit, it was trying to figure out all the Hawaiian dialects and all the Hawaiian languages, not just the Niʻihau.

So. Oh, yeah. So, yes, we've been working with University of Hawaii at Manoa's Kawaihuelani Center at for Hawaiian Language and Department of Linguistics. So the goal is, and their proposal is to produce a report on the unique variety of Ōlelo Hawaii, which is referred to as Ni'ihau.

But it is also to study the results and do a comprehensive study on the differences between Ni'ihau and the more commonly used Ōlelo Hawaii, along with capturing this, well, capturing the uniqueness of Niihau through videography and other reports. So it's a combination of both.

Yeah, but when we went on that, on the, when we had the meeting, it sounded like there were other unique Hawaiian languages. And that was because there was somewhat of a discussion debate between dialect versus language. Right. And so I thought this, the study was going to show us other unique Hawaiian languages.

Not just the Niihau one, but there could be regional ones throughout the state that were never captured. And that's what some of the kupuna, they were worried that now it's just we going into this mainstream Hawaiian language. But they felt that there were other regional languages and regional dialects that are not being captured, and we at least have to get that into the report.

So for this study, we may have to get back to you on that.

Can you look at that? Because if we have to expand the study to do what we talked about, I think it's important to have the more comprehensive approach. It may not be a deep dive in all the rest, but we at least have to make sure they're identified and captured in the report. Because the kupuna made a compelling case that they're just afraid that there's a mainstream Hawaiian language that's forgetting all of these other regional historical dialects and Hawaiian languages.

Okay, we can do that.

I mean, it was. I mean. And, you know, you got. I think we're all impressed that the students there publish their own books. I mean, their math scores may not have been the best. So you guys gotta work on that. But at least... I mean, that's amazing that every other year. Was it every other year or every year?

It's an ongoing project that they have.

That they publish a book.

The books are moʻolelo from Niihau and Kupuna in the area.

Oh, yeah. That was excellent. So. But I want... But I wanted to make sure that we followed up on the discussion we had on capturing everything or as much as we possibly can.

And the good news is we've pushed off this. We've been able to push off the study through the process. So we...

I mean, I was hoping to be... To actually get it already.

I know the IRB process at UH took a little bit longer than we anticipated, so we had to move the end game to August 2025. But we will have that. And that actually gives us time to incorporate what you're, what you're asking for right now. Yeah.

Because it almost has to be, you know, turned upside down, where the mainstream is really everything. And, you know, people can use the... I guess what they're teaching now, but we have to capture everything before it's really too late.

Not only that, I think I was pretty impressed with, when we visited some of the schools that they published their own books. And is that being captured by our state public library? Are you guys including funding for them to do that?

Well, maybe the Kauai one, probably. Yeah, at least. At least the Kauai Library, because that's. Yeah.

We will follow up with our state librarian regarding that. I think it's a great idea to capture it to honor the communities.

Yeah, absolutely.

And to honor those students. They're so proud to be authors.

Yeah, no, that was, that was very impressive. I mean.

Well, another question I had is...

Makes me think I could do one.

You should. You're going to need more than one version. How many positions do you have to be filled and where are you in filling those positions?

Just for clarification, Chair, within the Charter Commission office or...

Oh, I mean, the schools need teachers and other.

You know, that definitely becomes difficult. We as a state authorizer don't have all of the details for every school around either the temporary hires...

Okay, well how often do you collect that data at least?

Well, that is something we would not be captured on annual report or statute.

No, but you guys should at least once a year or, you know, twice a year, once a trimester, send a survey.

Because we need to be prepared. If you guys are going to have 10 charter schools opening within a two or three year period and need to fill the teachers and a library, whatever, that's going to cost money. And we need to be aware that this is going to be, have to be captured in the budget.

Good timing. Spring is usually when all the transfers are done. We can get a better capture of what that looks like.

So the two pages or page and a half of vacancy reports, these are all the vacancies, like preschool teachers. You got, I don't know, 15 of them. Educational Assistant, 3. They make up... They make up the entire vacancy.

The majority of, that's for our pre K program or the expansion of our early learning program.

So who's teaching? I mean, if these are all vacant, how many do you... I don't understand. So you can operate without these being filled?

So those for the early learning. So those are classrooms that are, have not yet been established. And so they do come up as positions, although the classrooms are out.

I see.

Is it... What did I do in my thing? So is it similar? Yeah, it matches that then. So when those are built, those will get built.

Right. Okay. Can I ask about teleworking? Okay, so on your telework I notice it says most of them are two to three hybrid options. Not sure how you determine them which, but then there's a couple early learning coaches that have five, meaning they work five days, every day. Right. Telework. Can you explain how they're able to do that?

Yes, technically. So we do have some early learning coaches that live on Hawaii Island. As I opened, we have 14 of our schools that are on Hawaii Island and the majority of those early learning classrooms are also on Hawaii Island. So the proximity to serve those schools as coaches is really important. So that would be specific to those five. It is... Technically they're not here in our office.

Maybe to clarify, they're not really teleworking. They're in the school. Really in the school supporting our school.

Okay. It's very confusing. I mean how they can work with the students.

They're really... Most of the time.

That's not called teleworking though.

They're out there in schools really supporting our teachers and our...

You shouldn't call it teleworking. It's not. They're not at home. Right. They're. They're in the field.

And then you have one. Is it account fiscal officer, four to five days.

Yes. We do have... We do have standards practices of telework by the state and so we apply those practices within the office and we have an approval system. We have a monitoring system around all the positions that are that are shown there.

Okay. And then work related travel.

So we actually really pride ourselves on the fact that we are at every of our charter schools. This is really important when we are evaluating the performance frameworks or academic, financial, and organization. So those require at least two site visits annually. One in the spring and then one in the summer organization and finance.

We also have our coaches as we share that are pushing into the schools, modeling lessons within the classroom. And I know from hearing from our charter schools the appreciation of being on site so we can value the work they're doing to see the libraries in the schools that children are offering. So all that is work related to travel to support our schools.

When you say work related travel, are they traveling outside of the island? Each island or...

Well, the big one is our national authorizer conference that we do annually and that's probably the largest one outside of our regular Neighbor Island travel to support our schools here in the state.

For clarification, Vice Chair. The majority of the travel reported on that travel log is in island same day travel to the different schools. So like it's monitoring visits as Director Noh said. Monitoring, evaluation where our different teams are going out to the schools, working with staff there, going and doing things like classroom observations. Deanne her team do a lot of classroom observations, coaching. So yeah, the majority of the travel that we put in the log is for that.

So is it for mileage or is it, what is it? Because you have some that's like $925. I think it's like five people. You've got 600, you've got 550, 585. So what is that?

We've kind of used the averages. So for, I mean when they all go, they share one car. You know, they'll get one car, and then we just have the same day, the meal allowance. Car rental and airfare.

So. No, but you said it's around the same island. It's not.

Inter-island. My apologies.

All Inter-island.

Yep. So we have our staff that are based here, go to the Big Island or go to Kauai to our different charter schools and again do that. That's on site visit and evaluations.

Can you break it down better next time?

It's a mix of mileage for those who are on island as well as inter-island.

Well, that's, I want to know like if it's on island Hawaii, the amount so high. They're sharing one car, they probably don't have to rent a car. So...

It was a, it is a big list. So we'll work on providing a little more information and maybe a better breakdown.

Yeah, but some of them might be... I think you need an IT program to track and then that way you can spit out reports. Because it sounds like you're trying to pull data from emails or something.

We pull it from our accounting system. Yes.

Yeah.

And then even when you do, when you do cost of trips, you know, you have the $12,000 but you list it as four positions. We're not sure you know who's going. And, and do they all need to. I see a specialist over here. And then there's early learning instruction for $2,200. Is that out of state? So interisland for two people, $2,200 on the same... Well, no, those are three days.

Then in some cases if there are excessive days of training, then it's more economical to stay on that particular site. But most of them are workday travels.

So that one they had to stay at hotel sounds like. Yeah, but the amount doesn't make sense if you don't include hotel.

But then, so you need to give a breakdown because we have no way of tracking some of this. Early learning pre-service. What does that mean? Early learning pre-service.

So we begin each year with foundational professional development for our teachers for a week long because we feel that it's very important to start up to year on the right foot. So it is a week long. So that training includes...

So they train the people on...

For statewide. So from Kauai, Maui, guys, they got a flight either to Hilo or to Oahu. Okay. So Oahu takes three counties, and then Hawaii County is just Hawaii County. The hotel is probably cheaper in Hilo.

We actually get Airbnb because that's cheaper than hotel. So we saved a lot of money.

Okay, thank you, Mr. Chair.

Do you folks have impact fees?

They don't have, no. Meaning, do you... I think the question is, do you receive any impact fee money from developers?

No. No, I don't think so.

So it shows that in April 24, impact fee balances for you is 18.8 million. Almost $18.9 million.

Because... So are you're familiar with the formula?

Yeah, it's all the developers.

You were at the county. The impact fee for development.

I believe, for Leeward, but I don't know for charter schools.

So this one here is in charter schools. Yeah, it goes by Oahu. You got Kalihi to Ala Moana Construction. Kalihi to Ala Moana Land. Leeward Construction. Yeah. So that's that way. Yeah, it's under the charter.

What page is that?

What is... Where did you find it?

Under my degree.

What page? What page of the 435?

What is this? 359. I don't know. Yeah, 359.

Oh, yeah. Impact fee balance.

Yeah. And then Maui has some. Oahu has a whole bunch. Then Maui and then Hawaii Island.

Oh, it's your page right after page 144 of your charts.

What is ours?

Ours is page 350.

359.

359.

In the budget. In brief, right?

Yeah. Oh, under budget. No, because I'm a public charter school. Is. You're looking at the...

Oh, so they said this is not for charter schools. This is just... But he was saying this is in budget and brief. The Governor's... Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Didn't make sense. That's why in this all it's under this charter school thing. Okay. I don't know why it's showing up. Whatever. We asked the question. They got 27 million. Okay.

We got to recess for how long. Oh, okay. Well, we're gonna... We can recess and so that libraries can set up. Okay. Just couple minutes. Thank you. Recess.

Okay. Reconvening the Joint Committee on Raising Means in Education. Next we'll hear from libraries. Good morning.

Aloha. Good morning and Happy New Year. Happy New Year. I'm Stacy Albridge. I'm the state librarian, and I have with me to the state Librarian, Mallory Fujitani. And we're happy to be here with you all today.

So this year we did a survey to understand what library services are valued by our patrons and how to best communicate with them. We had over 13,500 responses, and they provided us with helpful feedback about what's important to them. To share our budget requests, which are small, we're going to share the.

Let the voices of our patrons tell you the budget requests directly impact and improve the lives of the people in our communities. One of our patrons from Makawa said the reference librarian. I wouldn't have my present job if I didn't have the reference librarian from Makawa.

We also heard from the patron who said they love their security guard, Audrey Love. She creates a pleasant experience for them. People have to feel safe to have access to these essential services. We're asking for 1.2 million for security guards.

Last year, we used the state's price list to bring on a new security guard company to serve 43 of our libraries. Out of the 50, I'm putting one in parentheses for Lahaina. The cost to keep providing this important service Requires an additional 1.2 to be added to our base budget.

Hundreds of people responded to the survey that the library is a place where they use computers. They get computer classes, they access free WI fi. This includes families with kids needing to do homework, working parents, and Kupuna to continue to provide this bio service.

While we're doing major renovations in several of our locations, we want to make sure that there's temporary locations. And so we're asking for a total of 484,000 in FY26 and FY27 to set up temporary locations for Wahiawa, Pearl City and Makawa. Apologies. In our testimony, in one of our tables, not the actual tables, they're all right.

We had 500,4 FY27 for Wahiawa, but it's 200,000 for that year. Our neighborhood island patrons particularly believe the library to be an essential part of the community. One expressed it this way. The Lihui Public Library is an important resource for our rural community that doesn't have access to the things that Oahu residents have.

Our family and friends find it to be safe and a welcoming community hub. We're in the process of building a new community hub in Waikoloa. And we're asking for $31,548, which is half salary and FY27 to bring on our new branch manager who will be managing this library.

It's important to bring these managers on early because they help us build the collection, hiring staff, working with the construction and also building relationships with the community. Many residents, again especially on the neighbor islands, find that our libraries offer a haven for those without ac.

We hear that a lot, that being able to have a cool place to come is important.

Our facilities are aging and we're asking for 500,000 for repair and maintenance to be added to our base budget to help us create safe and healthy buildings by having funding needed to address large repair projects like elevator repairs and additional preventative maintenance projects.

The increase will bring us to 1.5 million for 51 branches and two administrative offices for repair and maintenance. And over and over again we hear that access to the state library state wide collection is important. One resident summed it up like this. I love that the statewide system gives me access to every branch on every island.

We're requesting funds to make our transfer and delivery system far more efficient and effective than it is today. We're requesting 500,000 in FY26 and 250,000 in FY27 to implement automated handling systems to improve efficiencies in how we handle books and other materials using technology and to also address staffing shortages.

Currently it is a manual process that requires many touch points and repetitive motion. This process and project will improve our ability to get our books to our readers more quickly. And now I'm going to turn it over to my colleague Mallory to discuss our CIP request.

Thank you to the Committee's past support for HSPLS's CIP request. The average age of our buildings is for 52 buildings is over 60 years old and many of them have not had significant improvements made to them over the years or since their initial construction.

Waiting too long to initiate these projects will only increase the cost of improvements in the future. But also in the case of energy efficiency measures. We also like to use the improvement process to implement energy savings measures which will directly impact our need for operating budget this year. We have two requests.

The first is $2 million in planning and design funds for the new Kapaa Library. The existing Kapaa Library is in a tsunami inundation zone and it's not safe to rebuild at that location. So we have been in the master planning effort on the Sam Mahelona campus, which is a much larger master planning project.

And so we have identified a location for a new Kapaa library, which is much closer to the residential area. In addition, we've asked for a much larger amount in lump sum funding for fiscal 26 and fiscal 27.

$25 million in each of the lump sum funding allows us to ensure that a project that's been through planning and design will not be stalled for lack of sufficient construction funds. This also allows us the flexibility to initiate new projects when the need arises, allowing us to continuously work to improve our library statewide.

As a result of prior year budget appropriations, we have a little over 50 projects in various stages of planning and design. Planning, design and construction. Many of these projects were initiated with some lump sum funding to start the design process. Funding is also needed to supplement line item appropriations that were under budgeted.

And in reality, we really don't know the true cost of a project until we get that construction bid in. And so sometimes we do have to shift over some lump sum funding to help support supplement it so that we can get the project awarded.

The other option in many cases is that we would have to lapse the funds for that line item appropriation. And so having that lump sum, that flexibility also ensures that we spend all the money that we are allocated. So we thank you for your time and support of our CIP projects.

And in closing, I've been thinking a lot about communities and neighborhoods, and it reminds me of Mr. Rogers, and he taught us that being a good neighbor means working together to solve complex issues and cultivate a world in which all people can fulfill their true purpose. Our public libraries are places where we do this work.

They are neighborhood institutions with immense returns on an exceptionally modest investment. The funding we are requesting will contribute directly to meeting our mission, which is to inspire curiosity, to create opportunities for all to read, learn, and connect. Thank you very much for your support, your time and attention, and we're happy to answer any questions you may have.

Okay, why don't we finish with all your additions? I was able to check off some that you mentioned, but table 6. So your first item is additional $2,000,000. 2,009,268.

These are positions the Governor initially in his first budget, had removed positions, and then he put money back in for our positions for 36.5 positions.

No.

So, okay, so restoration of positions that the Governor put into our budget.

But there's no positions. There's only the money.

We might have a mistake on our table. We'll Review. Apologies for that.

There should I'm wrong.

How many positions is that?

It's 36.5.

And how many have been vacant?

We selected five years. Any positions that were vacant for five years or. Or more. And so for us, it was 36.5. 65% of those positions we weren't funded for fully until this year, so we couldn't have filled them.

So this amount is for positions that have been filled within the five? No, have not. Have not been filled. So what makes you think you're going to get them if they weren't filled for five years?

Well, we. 65% of those positions were unfunded until this year in our budget.

The 35% that were funded.

36.5 positions total. But 65% of those positions were unfunded.

The other 35% that were funded.

About a dozen. Yeah.

Did you fill those?

We're. We're working on filling positions. We have more than half of our current vacancies in some form of recruitment right now.

But you said that for five years they've been vacant for five years.

Yes, some of them have been because we have to.

35% that you had funding for been vacant for five years.

So 36.5 positions.

Yeah. So 12 are the. Is 12. About 12. So are those 12 vacant for five years?

Yes, they would have been, but we've been having to also fill other positions. So.

Yeah, but the point is, if you can't even fill those that you've had for five years, what makes you think you wouldn't fill all the others that you get funding for?

So we had constant challenges with filling all of our vacancies. So we have couple challenges that I think we discuss every year. The first is for this 165% of these positions weren't funded at all. Second is we have budget restrictions. So 9. At least 9%. 8.

Well, like 8 to 10% of our budget is restricted, so we don't have the funding. So without that funding, we cannot hire for every position.

So when you have a large number of vacancies, we have to hire for the ones that are keeping our libraries open, which means some fall to the bottom just because we're trying to keep our libraries open with what we have. So if we don't have the funding, we can't hire for all the positions.

Understand. But you're just talking about 12 positions. And if the 12 of you are restricted, let's just say six, you haven't been able to even fill the six. So what makes you think now that you're going to get the funding for all of this, that you're going to all of a sudden be able to fill them.

Let me see if I can try to respond. So when we start off the fiscal year, we have the 8 to 10% restriction off the top. And BNF only releases funding for payroll by quarter. So think about it. We have $1 million in funding per quarter for our payroll. This 12 positions.

If you say average salary of 50,000, it's only $600,000. So we really. So we have $1.0 million that were short already when we start the quarter. And then. So there has to be choices where, how we prioritize.

So the real reason that you're not filling it is because you needed that money for those positions to fill other positions. That what you're saying, right?

The other positions that will keep the door open.

That's the worst answer I know.

Well, I guess what it is, is we have X number of positions, but we don't have enough money to fill all those at any given time.

That's because you've taken money like everybody else have, which we've been looking at, into, you know, salaries, vacant savings, and you've used it to pay for others. So even if you wanted to fill these positions, you can't because you use the money.

So you come in and you ask us for new positions and the same thing goes on year after year. And then you get used some of that money for vacancy. You leave it vacant for vacancy, savings and then you come in and you keep asking.

That's why you have all these positions and then you tell us you can fill it when you know you're not going to fill it. You just don't want us to cut it. Right? Because we're going to cut. I'm going to recommend we cut everything at least five years, longer, if not three years.

But because there's so much of this going on where you guys rob Peter to pay Paul.

But it's not just that, you know, we have frustrations with just going through the process. It can take a year to hire people. So yes, we still need. It's not that we don't need the positions is that we can't hire fast enough and we don't have the money. So we're in a.

We're in this weird hamster wheel where we're trying to do what we need to do, which is hire the positions that are most needed. Because it depends. Like for example, Kauai, Hawaii had four vacancies for four Branch managers. We have filled them all.

We would prioritize those positions if we have to look at our budget because we need to have branch managers first. Understand? But you've had those.

Not that we are making a choice to say no, these aren't important or no, we don't need these, but we're constantly stuck in this, this, this balance of trying to balance budget and trying to balance the, the process that takes so long to hire.

Understand? But the process takes a year when we're trying to work on that. But you still. It was for five years again. So some of your arguments or your reasoning doesn't, doesn't match up. And so.

And then to give us, to give us this aspirations that you're going to be able to fill all these positions when you know you're not and then you're going to take those monies and use it to Fund other things. Right. Other positions that you think is a more priority. Right.

Because what happened to those monies though, for those positions?

So we're intentionally trying to have salary savings. It's the other, the other challenge for us is even if we do request money, we don't. We won't get it till later in the year, so far into the year that it won't affect the hiring of people because it'll be too late in terms of the full salary. So.

But you still have five years of vacant. When you give us the money, the positions were still five years later. Let's say it's only six positions. It's still five years later.

It's because we've had to prioritize the positions that we're filling. It's running a 51 branch library system with nine support areas and we're constantly juggling which positions we can fill in order to make sure we can do operations. So we're doing the best that we can.

We don't shoot for salary savings, but frankly, salary savings because we are so Un. I mean, we're UnderfUnded like all agencies. We all have a challenge here in Hawaii. But without salary savings, we wouldn't be able to keep up with some of our building projects or keep up with some of our operations.

We still have to pay for garbage and all those things. And again.

And you're using salary savings for those.

Sometimes we have to. Absolutely. Yeah.

Because of the BNF restriction.

Yeah. Because we, we don't know if we'll get it back or not. So we can request funding, but normally we won't get it back until May sometimes, which is not enough. Time to spend it all on a position by that point.

And we don't want to hire people and then have to lay them off because we don't have any funding to pay for them.

So I heard you saying some of the positions is manager positions. How much positions is for the librarians? Are you. Are you are you have a shortage of librarians?

You mean of the total or of the. No, of the one that of the related to this line item?

Yeah.

Yeah, it's a mixture of librarians and some positions within our Administration side, our fiscal office. It's a mix of positions.

The reason why I bring this up is because some of our libraries, maybe not in the rural areas or neighbor islands, but what I would want from you guys, if you guys can give how much student ratio to public ratio and the usage of the libraries in I guess maybe a wall would be better and try to do the neighbor islands and then how much school and public libraries you guys have?

We have 12 school.

Public libraries? Yes. 12 on school campus.

Yes, 12.

So of the 5112 are on schools?

Yes. Maui, Islana, and then also. And then six.

The reason why I bring this up is that you guys being short, I know you guys been short librarians for a while and I know since I've been in this square building the librarian, I don't know, you guys got a pay raise not too long ago and we're talking about not having money moving forward and doing savings and so forth and so on.

But some of the libraries are not opened all week. You just have certain days that the library is closed and certain hours the library is closed. So that's the reason why I want to know, best use practice.

Because 25 years ago, before they built KAP library, it was going to close the Ever beach library and we fought to keep it open. Since then, the declining in Kap ever Beach O that's why I like know the numbers, has been declining on student ratio and public ratio for the school.

So what I'm trying to get at colleagues is that some of the libraries, because it's not that far apart, especially like IAL Pro City, Waipa, Ever beach and Kapolei now because we're all connected, is to start thinking about consolidating because you get positions like Senator Kim said, six of them for five years.

But if you consolidate the libraries and utilize the workers and down downsize the consolidation of the libraries, I'm not saying that you guys need to do that, but you guys should be thinking about it because five years, that's A long time that be able to juggle around and hoping that you can get funding for it.

Because if you didn't get it five years ago, what you're making five years in the future that you're going to actually be able to fill these positions?

Well, some of that money, some of the positions you had funding for five years, you just never filled it.

The 12, the 65%. We didn't have full funding for all the positions until this year. We lost the funding during COVID Yeah.

Yeah. So this, this additional 2 million is.

It's not additional. It's just keeping it into our budget. So it's not an addition to. The Governor had cut it from our budget.

I thought you just said that you got it back.

Yeah, he put it, he put it. Back into his budget request.

Zero, meaning this? You don't have it yet.

Right. Okay, but it wasn't, it's not. We're not asking for more money. It's just that he put the money back in. He, he's taken positions and he put the money back in for our position. Positions.

Okay, so what about hrs 31233 and hrs 3127 because those are specific authorities that the library has for to reallocate vacant positions and to establish job sharing programs. So are you using any of that?

Yes, we've actually reallocated many positions into other positions that are more useful for us. In fact, one of our requests is to take two half time janitors to make a full time janitor for Hana. So we are realigning our positions to better meet the needs. So we're not asking, we're not asking for more positions.

36.5 were already in last year in our previous years.

We're just so even though you have the authority, you're still going to ask for the trade off because can't you do that without.

Well, we were told we have to do it this way.

Okay, sure. If I can. Thank you. So Stacy, I want to go back to the Lanai position. As you know, it's been vacant from 2022.

We had an individual that applied for the job and what I noticed when I what your response to me was applicant was qualified by D Herd and then when you guys went to do the interview process then realized that the qualification she was not qualified.

So now that the response was you guys are going to try and make a different or a lower description for qualification because you know we've had challenges. Hana Molokai all hard to fill positions. How long from the Time D Herd took to do that.

And then now how much longer is going to take while she has to wait for the reposting of this job that she would actually meet the criteria?

Because if not the challenge for this individual, which we waited a long time that transferred over from Molokai to go there, she would have to come here to do the added qualifications, which we're probably not gonna get anybody else qualified. How long does it take D.

Herd now to make that position where she would be qualified at her present.

But. But do you even need that? Because last year we passed Act 186 that allows the Department to do that. But. So the Department is supposed to now have new authorities to do exactly what she's saying in updating quality job qualifications.

So we are still waiting for a full direction from D. Herd on our ability.

Because once you get that, then what she's talking about will happen a lot sooner. Because you'll be able to do it.

Yes. Well, yes and no. Because we advertised at the 4 and the particular applicant has a library degree but no other experience. So she automatically qualifies for a three.

So what we have done is we have to go back out again because we have to listen listed as a 34 so that she would be able to qualify for interviews. And so our staff have already submitted the paperwork and I think it should be out by the end of this month. So there.

It should not be long. You should have access to the.

But you're. You're. You're able to update job qualifications without D Herd.

No, no, we have to work with D Herd. We can't update qualifications. We.

With Act 186.

But I thought the Bill was more focused on the ability to review lists. Because what we have to wait for now is they collect all the names and then we have to wait for them to determine if people. Okay.

Did you get a Memo regarding Act 186 from D Herd? Yes. Can you forward that to us? Thank you. Thank you.

Sure. Just a quick one. So I kind of confused now. You just said D hurt when qualified is Wahini or person. I don't know. Okay. She. She was qualified by Deart. And you guys would need to view her only applicant now realizing she wasn't qualified and so she didn't want a job. But there was no other applicant.

There was no other applicant. So you guys couldn't make the decision because you guys seen that she never have experience or whatever you guys seen when you standing Senator De Cruz. But again, nobody was applying for the position. So Again, you guys never have that authority to do that when qualifying.

So she was the only one at the time. Just to clarify, D Herd did it. I made a mistake when they qualified her because when they come all libraries, every student that comes out of the master's in library science program is only qualified for a Librarian 3 position if they have no experience.

And she's coming out of the school directly, does not have any experience. But D Herd qualified her for a librarian four, which is the degree plus experience. So in the past, we've had to. When library fresh library degree students Applied for Librarian 4 degrees to D Herd, they have been rejected.

It's not just in this case, she should have been rejected. And that's really where the problem started. And then our staff, what came to our staff, they didn't look at it closely to recognize that she was not qualified. There's a General assumption when the list comes over from D Herd that they have qualified everybody.

You know what? I think the bigger question ends up being that if you have all these vacancies, you cannot fill them. You have all these issues. Don't you think you should update qualifications? Maybe certain. Maybe you got to change mqs.

We have to work with D Herd to do all of that. So we have to review all the.

But then if not, we're just stuck in this. Like you, what you described as a hamster wheel. But you're not initiating any kind of change because in some cases, I feel if you have some minimum qualifications, you could always do additional training and that will be to get people in the door.

If not, you're waiting for the library. Library students. I don't know how long that's going to take.

Well, we do do that. In fact, we already have done that for Molokai. We have. We had a student who was working for us who's in library school, and we had to go through the whole process because there is a process that's also defined by union rules as well that we have to go through.

So we followed process. She applied and she has been hired as the librarian at a 4 or 3. And then she'll come in as a 4 when she gets her degree because she'll have experience.

Okay, that's. I'm just saying, same old. It doesn't seem to be working.

So how, how long is the training or whatever that you got to have experience to be the four?

I have to re. I have to look at what the requirement is. I think it's a minimum of two years of management experience.

What should she need? Six more months.

Senator Elefante. Thank you.

Could you provide the committees your breakdown. On Table 15 of your 25 million statewide for request the lump sum?

Yeah, the lump sum. Thank you. Okay. Any other questions? zero, go ahead.

Yeah. How many security on page table 6. The 2 million. $2,009,258. Is that for security?

No, that's the one.

She was saying 1.2 is the addition.

Thank you.

Okay, so how does. How does this. How is this different in working with either DLE and DAGs and DLE for security?

Yeah. We have to have our own security guard company to manage our 50 branches so.

And it's only during work hours.

Yeah. And then we do have some drive bys that we do in the evening where we have really supposed to be doing drive Ayes in the evenings to issues.

Do you mean you're supposed to be. So you're not.

Well, they were doing daytime and we're working with them to move it to nighttime but they. They need to go around for loitering and some destruction to our property. So we're going to prevent that. Can I follow up on that?

I don't know. Maybe you brought it up when I was talking to President. But so you said here it's adding this amount to the current amount. Right. Base budget. How much is the base budget for the. Where the guards?

I can tell you what the total contract is. The total contract is 4.3 million.

4.3 million?

Yeah. For 51 or 43 libraries. But we have some that have two or three guards depending on the size of the building.

Okay.

And that's the difference of the. The cost that you pay per person per hour. The company we had before we were paying so Low that we just. We were not getting the services that we needed. So we did use the state's contract. They reviewed and vetted two agent two security agencies and so we picked the lowest.

So this who is the state contract, what company?

They give you a list?

Zero, AGS is the one is our. Company and they pay per.

Do you know what the RD pays for the.

Well, they. Our contract stipulates a charge depending on island for how much that they requests per hour per.

On the schedule. I think Oahu said about $38 per hour is what we're charged. We're not. I'm not sure what the actual pay that goes to the employee is. Interesting.

Minimum wage because I know. Yeah. Well some private companies they just pay like $20 an hour or whatever. But I know the University of Hawaii, they hire their guards. They only pay them $24 I think an hour and they're asking for millions of dollars as well in their budget. But so I'm just wondering.

And they, they train their own plus they hire contracts. So it's like. I don't know.

So. So what. What is the reason why now that we have the. The law enforcement on state buildings and why is the reason why they cannot being utilized by the library and you law enforcement.

So we. So having security guards on site, having someone present oftentimes prevents people from doing something.

Zero no, no, I understand that. But right now we're not utilizing sheriffs. We're not utilizing the law enforcement. Sheriffs right now could, could be going to. With the amount of money you guys are supposedly paying a guard that would be able to cover a sheriff's fee.

We have to be there. We have tried to get overtime for sheriffs and they don't. They don't.

You guys have the position. They have a sheriffs right now. They have more than the law enforcement. So what I'm saying is future wise because I know this is how the security company noticed the save. You're paying $38 an hour with vacation, sick leave and holiday.

But when they actually hired a guard, their minimum wage don't have no benefits, no nothing.

So when are we gonna stop that telling them if you're gonna hire one security guard, you promising us that you're gonna pay this guard French benefits and you're not, then you're lying to the state because if you're telling each guard cost $38 because I know already it's going to be with vacation and sick leave and then they don't provide it, isn't that being fraud to the state?

So in the bid, we have asked sheriffs before previously to help provide security at the library system and they have told us they don't have enough personnel. And that was just. We last asked right before the daily was created.

So they said when we talked to them subsequent, they said maybe in the future that may be an option when they have enough positions and they are fully staffed. I think the Other issue is 25 of our libraries are 26 of our libraries are neighbor islands where there are no sheriffs available.

I'm not asking for you guys just said you guys get three security guards on some of the problematic areas.

So I'm not saying the blanket all sheriffs or law enforcement, but from the ones that you guys are having problems, three guards for $38 an hour that the company is charging one sheriff with his car and is late would do more deterrent than true.

A true senior citizen security guard walking around at 80 years old, it's not happening. You guys got to check that out because that's what's happening in my community. No security is driving, making checks, nighttime, zero, nothing. Copper, 00 in your golf cart.

They save money with your library.

I actually agree with you on the benefits this company is supposedly giving Benefits because they took some of our guards like Audrey Love on Kauai. She now works for this new guard company. She now has leave. She did not have leave before. She now has sick leave. So we are paying to have better.

We have, they've had some challenges in actually hiring people. Trying to find people to be security guards is very difficult and we've been working with them where we have issues and we are, they've been pretty good at following up and it's definitely a challenge. And we do work closely.

I know our Hawaii State Library works with the sheriffs, but it is hard on the other islands. And again we just want to make sure we have safe spaces where we had two libraries this year where we had librarians who were physically assaulted.

And I, I, I want to make sure that our staff and our patrons are safe.

I just seeing when you guys do the contract, who, who does the contract? The library.

Or, or we're using a state procurement office vendor price list. So the SB.

It was a pre approved list that they took from.

Yeah. So what I'm saying is whoever doing the, the approved list procurement or whatever, we got to make sure we get every bang for our buck. Because if they're putting in the procurement, it's the same thing that we have at the airport. Right. Back in the day. So we still charge 40 something dollars.

The state procurement office.

Yeah. Yeah.

So maybe that's a discussion we got to have with that. The companies on the list. Yeah.

How about if we look at an augmented system with the sheriffs where they have a, they have a division of just security guards and they get trained only by security, not like policemen, which uh, does. And that's why they can't keep the people.

But so we have a cadre of these security guards and we can pay them what they're worth because paying $30 to the company, we can pay them. Right.

And then big safety chair is gonna.

Yeah. Can we look at, I mean you know we got uh, asking for. You've got libraries, that's asking. You've got, you know, and then some of them doesn't require a sheriff, a policeman. It's a security guard. And if we do it correctly we could actually save monies on it. You know.

So I mean we need to start thinking that way.

So in the past I believe the library system.

No, I don't.

What is that?

Zero, I was just saying in the past the state library system had their own security guards. And then I guess we lost those positions and then went to.

I think it was what they called a security attendant position within the union. And then those positions were abolished. So there were only armed sheriffs as far as category of. Of employee, state employee. So that's why we had to go move to outside contract.

What year was that?

Zero, I, I have some old information. I will look for it. But yeah, it was used to be called. The category used to be called security attendant. Which were those positions were eliminated or that class was abolished. And so the only, the only remaining class was like an armed security which we didn't need that level of security.

So that's where. That's the genesis of how the library system ended up having to contract for security.

And follow up to Senator Kim's question. Have you guys made a request to daily especially at some problem area libraries. For example, right here, our state library where you have homeless folks. I mean what was DL's response?

Walk around.

So I was surprised by your message. Thank you for sending it to us because we've noticed actually a decline. We had a lot of people sleeping on Illini and it was, it was dangerous for our staff and they had to clean up in the mornings and we don't have that issue anymore.

So they, they have the cameras up too. So they are.

But you don't have a physical presence that's there the entire time. They're just roving.

So that's where the contracted security. We employ up to three security guards that walk the 110,000 square feet of that building. And that's really important is that they're walking throughout the building and constantly monitoring who's inside the building, the after hours issues that happen at night and whatever.

That's where the private security that is covering the capital as well. They include the library now. But if we do have other issues we can call law enforcement. We. We haven't reached out to them about something more permanent rather than on emergency basis. If it's.

So these monies are for guards just dedicated to the library and not where they just travel with the whole capital grounds.

Well, we have one. What Stacy was referring to is kind of an urban driver by at night for our. Some of our urban libraries where we have more problems, where we have more vandalism, which includes Liliha, Makali, Waikiki, which are not included. So we're not duplicating with the DAGS contract which covers the capital.

Thank you.

Different. Different subject. I'm looking at your first page where you have your chart on, checkout of materials, checkout of digital books and so forth. And I noticed that the digital is almost what you do. Physical checkouts and then library visits 2 million.

And if you look at, I'm not sure the digital as to how many people are actually visiting the site versus and then versus checking out. So what kind of budget do you have and are you planning to expand the digital library as far as, you know, books and so forth? Because I, I, I use ebook Libby.

And there's a lot of long time wait for, for books. There's a lot of books that I put in that you folks don't even have digitally. So and then you know, audible books versus reading.

There's a lot of seniors that would prefer audible because they cannot see really well and the blue light is really hard on the eyes. So what it, I mean that's a, that's very descriptive. Yes, very descriptive. I was talking about you, Dungar.

I gotta renew my car.

So. Yeah, so what do you look. Because that, that is where we're moving towards, right? More digital and so forth.

Yes. So it is a challenge to balance physical and digital because digital people who read digital also read physical. So when we ask our patrons, we say which do you prefer? Paper, physical or digital? Most people say, I like both. I've found a few people who only do digital, but there's still a desire for paper.

The challenge with digital is we don't own it. So every publisher has a different model. And if we circulate, we pay $50, say we pay $50 to have access to your favorite new book that you want to read, new novel.

After 26 circulations of that, we have to pay $50 more to hit the next hold list so that more people can read it. So instead of the paper, which is probably like 16, maybe $20, we are now paying several hundreds of dollars sometimes for some titles so that we can make sure that they're available to people.

And depending on where you are and how much access you have to connectivity, a lot of people still rely on paper, children in particular, picture books. They're very important. No, I understand that balance and our. Budget is, is a challenge to be able to find that, challenge to be able to meet that.

But do you have the stats that show any kind of justification?

Yes, I could, we can send you something.

Is it, is there any indication that as time go on that the cost for these materials that you rent instead of own is being going to be less cost? So if it going up, the publishers.

Are not really willing to work with libraries. They don't because they see it as a way of taking away from their revenue. And they see digital books as a different. A separate thing. They don't consider it the same title. They see them as two different products, the physical and the digital.

So we've seen new, new models, but they still. I'm still concerned in the future people will have access to these resources if we've never even owned one copy. And so like our downtown library is the item of last resort.

So we make sure we have copies of books that might, you know, classics or things that people might want to have. So it's an ongoing struggle for libraries right now.

Well, I just want to say that your access online for the books and stuff is very user friendly. It's very easy. And they even notify you when you put books on hold when it comes due. And there's a lot of options. You can delay it. Yeah. So it's really well done.

You don't have to pay a fine if you don't turn it in on time.

Well, it's automatically. They take it back. No, they take it. They take it automatically from you. Or you can renew it the day before or whatever.

I just want to add in that, that's how our collection, our funding for collection purchases is based on. The model is based on people paying us fines and fees because they didn't return their physical. So as people move to digital, we have our resources for. To purchase the collection is diminishing.

Yeah, but you want people to turn it on time. You don't.

That's. That's our primary revenue stream for it. Our base budget for purchasing materials is only 1.5 million.

Okay. But you know what? You guys should be coming up with new revenue models anyway. That's not. That's an antiquated old revenue model. I mean, we talked about this before, right? Coffee shops, whatever the case creates some revenue.

Yeah. And how often do you lose books? People just steal the books.

We can run a report for you and just sometimes it depends on location. Right.

Because you have to balance that with the digital because you can't steal it.

Yeah. We have had problems when books. So when Dr. Seuss, some of his books were no longer published, we had somebody identify all those books and get a library card and check them all out. And then he was going to sell them on ebay. We caught him quickly because we saw him checking out multiple.

Our staff were aware of it. And so he didn't start bringing them back until he got a fine of reminder they owe $10,000. Because by the time you add up the collection, how much can get Taken. So.

So what was he going to do when you had to return it? If he sold it all, he would.

Have to pay us with money. So he did. He actually did find them. He had some excuses. I think he got it down a smaller amount. But that's how quickly we have to pay attention to. So we do pay attention to our inventory so we know what we're losing.

But we can give you an update of how many items we lost last year.

Okay, thank you.

And staff.

The staff does monitor how. How many people are on wait lists for books that are very popular. And that's.

Okay, you guys go ahead. Quick question. You know, I wanted to go back to Molokai High School library.

Why is it that the librarian that is hired there when they both share that same library space with the middle school, that that librarian can only watch the kids that come in from the high school and when the middle school kids come to use it, she cannot service them?

That's a good question. We don't oversee the school library, so I'm not sure what is restricting her country.

So what is the arrangement just under the library facility itself? I mean, I. I don't understand.

Facility.

Yeah. Not a high school. High school. Yeah. So. Zero, so you guys have. zero, yeah, sorry. Okay. I was thinking of something else. Sorry.

Yeah, you can ask him in the afternoon though. Yeah, I will. Heidi, heads up. It's coming. Okay. Why don't we go to the last page of Table 6? Because the rest you. You kind of mentioned in your opening remarks the additional funding for repairs and maintenance. How is this different than the 25 million that you're asking for?

So we're doing some. All of our elevators elevator modernization projects. It's about 300,000 per. All of our elevators are overdue for that modernization.

How many elevators do you have?

About a five or six. Six, because we. Including our freight elevator. So we're trying to get ahead of this is it's preventive maintenance in some cases. Like you would think that the Manoa library, which is a little bit newer as far as libraries that is kind of overdue for a modernization as well.

Not the whole library? No, no, no.

The elevator. Okay. Yeah. So it's. We have lots of cost of costly items and it's also trying to get ahead in our preventive maintenance as well.

So you're asking for half a million added to the base?

Yeah, yeah.