Senate Standing Committee on Economic Development and Tourism

Good afternoon.

Thank you for your patience. We're convening the joint committees on Energy Intergovernmental Affairs and our good friends from the Committee on Economic Development and Tourism.

It's a little after 3:10 in room 016 on this February 11, 2025. If we. This hearing is going to be streamed live via YouTube and if there's any kind of technical difficulties we will make a public notice as to when this these two committees will reconvene. We're going to limit testimony for those who are testifying to one minute.

We have one bill on this agenda. That is Senate Bill 1338, relating to long duration clean energy storage. On our testifiers list we have Mark Lick from the energy office.

Good afternoon Chairs, Vice Chair, Senator. Cameron Black, with the State Energy Office who stand on our testimony in support.

Thank you Cameron.

Thank you.

Jimmy Tokioka from DBED has submitted testimony in support. David Molinaro from HTDC.

Good afternoon, chairs, vice chair, senators. David Molinaro, director of HCATT standing on our testimony.

Thank you David. And Julie Yunker from the gas company has submitted testimony support. Anybody else wishing to testify on Senate Bill 1338? If not, members any questions? Wait, do we have quorum? No.

Okay. So for the EIG Committee we would like to pass this measure out with technical non substantive amendments as well as defect the date to 5/13/2040. Any discussion? If not Senator Chang, I vote yes.

For the EIG Committee on SB 1338. Chair's recommendation is to pass with amendments.

[roll call]

The recommendation is adopted.

Great. And then I'm going to defer for five minutes.

I like that wishful thinking. Okay, we are going to adjourn this hearing and then we'll continue when other folks show up.

We are back the, just the, Energy Intergovernmental Affairs Committee on this February 11th Tuesday at 3:20 or so in room 016.

Again this hearing is being streamed live via YouTube and if there's any technical problems we will post public notice as to when we will reconvene and we will have testimony limited to one minute per individual on our testifier. On our agenda we have Senate Bill 233 relating to climate resilience.

Person on testifiers list for this measure is Mark Glick from the Hawaii State Community Alliance.

Good afternoon Chair. Vice Chair, Senators. Cameron Black on behalf of the Hawaii State Energy Office, we stand on our testimony and so forth. Thank you.

Thank you, Cameron. Sherry Pollock has submitted testimony support and Beatrice Dirago also in support. Is there anyone else wishing to testify on Senate Bill 233? If not members, any questions for Mr. Black? No. We're going to move on to the next measure, that being Senate Bill 492 relating to the General excise tax. Excuse me.

On our testifiers list is Gary Suganuma or someone from Billtax.

Good afternoon, Chair, Vice Chair, Members of the Committee, Vincent Wong on behalf of Billtax, Billtax staff standing up for a testimony. Just going into the record that Billtax supports this bill. Thank you.

Thank you Vincent. Ali Watson from DHHL has submitted testimony support. Mary Alice Evans from Office of Planning. Thank you. Derek Kawakami from Kauai in support. Alice Lee from County Council has been testimony support. Natalie Iwasa is in opposition. Jared Tsuchiyama in support. Lawrence Zirbel from the Food Manufacturers Association might be joining us via zoom. Trent

Not present on Zoom. Chair.

Thank you, Trent. Ted Kafalas from Grassroots Institute is in opposition. Is there anyone else wishing to testify on Senate Bill 492? Not. Members any questions? Okay, we are moving quickly to the last measure on this agenda. That is Senate Bill 1638 relating to water resources.

On our testifiers list we have Ernie La from the Board of Water Supply.

Hi, good afternoon, Chair. Members. Ernie La, Board of Water Supply. We Senator, testimony in support of SB6.

Thank you, Mr. LA. Melody Aduha submitted testimony support and Sherry Pollard also in support. Is there anyone else wishing to testify on Senate Bill 1634? If that Member has any questions. Mr. Lau, Mr. La, your testimony actually wants to bump up the numbers to 20 million. No, you want to do six.

Sorry, you want to do six monitoring wells instead of two. Two monitoring wells, correct?

That is correct. Yeah, we get. We've also included in our testimony some of the bid amounts or contract amounts for existing monitor wells that are underway. It's around $3 million a piece. So we're $20 million. You know, we think we can get to maybe up to six monitor wells that can be installed.

Okay. I'm always hesitant when you say like you have this number and then you force the number of monitoring wells to fit 20 million. Do we really need six monitoring wells?

Yes, we actually do. Right. Right now there's about. Navy's installed about. And well, maybe let me back up the Red Hill facility and I know, Senator, we've. Chair, we've talked in the past 20 large underground storage tanks built in and Put into service in 1943. 250ft tall, 100ft in diameter.

The facility stretches out over a couple thousand feet under the Red Hill Kapukaki Rid Bridge. It's also connected by pipelines all the way to Pearl Harbor. That runs about three miles from Pearl harbor to Red Hip. The Red Hill fuel tanks.

So over its history, over its 80 year history, leaks could have ranged from 644,000 gallons to up to maybe 1.9 million gallons of fuel of various types that could have leaked at the facility. And also in November 2022, they spilled 1300 gallons of firefighting foam concentrate liquid that's used to create AFFF to fight fuel fires.

They spilled that on the ground and that was released into the environment. And it contains PFAS too. So the monitor wells that the Navy's installed, there's about 30 something, 35 or so that they've installed. The majority are actually located on Navy property where the tanks are located.

But outside Navy property, in Halawa Valley and into Monolo Valley, there's been less monitor wells installed. So the idea is we only see part of the picture. You only see where the wells.

Sorry I cut you off, but now my colleagues from EDT have quorum. So if you don't mind, we're going to get back to you. But if you don't mind, we're going to.

Thank you.

Decision making on the Tuesday February 11310 agenda. Enjoy commitment energy, intergovernmental affairs and commit on economic development, tourism. So the we're voting on SP1338 relating to long term duration clean energy storage. And we're passing with amendments, technical amendments. And the Defective date was 51324. Effective date 51320. No, 2040, not 152040. Any discussion?

Okay, Vice Chair for the vote. Chair goes I. I vote yes. Senator Fukunaga. Aye. Senator Kim is excused. Senator, AWA Chair, your recommendation is adopted.

Thank you. And with that we are adjourned.

Okay, like magic, we're back to 320 our agenda and we were Members, we left off on Senate Bill 1634 regarding relating to water resources. And Mr. Law, I'm sorry for cutting you off, but please continue describing the situation at Red Hill very simply.

So the fuel tanks are on the bridge between Mauna Lo Valley and Halawa Valley. And most of the monitor wells that Navy's installed are actually around Navy property on that ridge. But Halawa Valley, there's a lot of Halawa Valley where there's no monitor wells located. And Also less, even less monitor wells into Mauna Loa Valley.

So the idea here is there needs to be more monitor wells installed to actually locate where contaminants that emanate from this facility over its 80 year history have traveled or is traveling and in which direction. So the idea here is to add more monitor wells to this effort. The Navy's continue to install monitor wells.

Porta Water Supply has stepped forward to install monitor wells. Go through that effort also to supplement the information. But remember here we are talking about a state resource, a public trust resource, and we're trying to protect that resource.

But really locating where the contamination has spread from the Red Hill facility is key to the idea of determining whether we can. The Navy can clean it up because you can't clean up something that you don't actually don't know where it's moving and located right now. So simply, that is the request.

Okay, thank you. I think obviously the monitoring wells give us a better idea of how the water is flowing. But I mean, at a certain. The Navy has 45 monitoring wells. I think if we add two more and more in the future, how many does the Board of Water Supply have in this area?

We have two monitor wells, one installed and one under construction. We have three more that's going to enter construction.

Okay, so that'll get us plus 50 total monitoring wells.

That's still not enough because Red Hill Vibe Report, which was a effort jointly between the state and the city actually where we identified the need for up to maybe 122 monitor wells to provide a better grid of monitor wells. So this would contribute to the effort, but would would not get us fully there.

122 monitoring wells at $3 million a pop right now.

That's our price to do it. So this burden should really be on the military. But in the meantime, I think the military is going to probably move in different directions. I. I don't know what we're.

We're not sure if they're going to be still aggressive in trying to install more monitor wells and get support from Congress to put more monitoring wells in the ground. So this effort helps us keep moving forward.

Okay, but the six monitoring wells that are contemplated in this Bill are state and city lands. Correct?

State, city and also private lands. If we're able to work with the private land owner to get permission.

Okay, okay. That's a lot of expensive pukas we're putting into the ground.

Yeah, it is. But imagine now the Red Hill facility and the almost 1.9 million gallons that could have been released or its 80 year history. The impact on the water resources in the area.

It's something that although they've emptied most of the fuel out of it, there's still some residual fuel and sludge you have to clean out of each of the tanks and also remove the three, about 10 miles of pipeline, three large pipes running three miles each. It is determining the impact on the water resources in the area.

That's really critical. And that effort's going to take many, many years to actually get done because they're still drilling monitor wells. There's been some test of trying to do some remediation efforts, but the results were very marginal at best. So we are facing a really big challenge here.

And I personally have been on this issue now for 11 years, so I appreciate the support of the, of the Senate.

Thank you very much for your time, Mr. Law. Senator Richards. Yeah, Mr. Law.

So we're talking two separate valleys because this is on a ridge, is that correct?

Right. So if this was Red Hill and all the fuel tanks are in Red Hill, Mauna Lo Valley would be on one side and Halawa Valley on the other side where you have the H3 and the quarry. So Mauna Lo Valley, the, the Red Hill fuel tanks sit underground.

The bottoms of the tanks are only 100ft above the top of the aquifer and they've leaked over its 80 year history. So groundwater, we think because of the differences in the height of the water table above, measured from above sea level, it's higher in Mauna Loa Valley and lower in Halawa Valley.

So I think there's a natural gradient toward the west. So across Halawa Valley we have our Halawa Shaft, one of our largest sources for Honolulu. Over 10 million gallons a day possible from that, that one site. But we also shut down Halawa wells and Aiea wells.

And to the west of that we have more BWS wells to the west, Kalawa Wells, Kaumilu Wells, Kaunohi wells. So our concern is how far will contaminants emanating from the Red Hill facility make its way eventually across the valley. We are right now detecting PFAS chemicals in our Halawa Shaft, something we didn't get detect in 20202021.

We started to see a hit there and now consistently we're seeing PFAS in our Halavasha. And I want to be clear though, because I've been accused of saying it's coming from Red Hill, I don't know, 100% it's coming from the Red Hill. I also don't know 100 with certainty. It's not coming from Red Hill.

And the problem is between our wells on the west side of Alaba Valley and the Red Hill facility, there aren't enough monitor wells there to actually locate where the plumes are moving.

So if I'm hearing you correctly, it sounds like we have two different aquifers. Is that correct?

They're actually connected. So you have the. The Water Commission calls it the Mauna Loa sector and the. What they call the Waimalu sector, which is Halawa Valley, toward Waimalu.

So they are. They're connected.

They're physically connected. When the USGS coordinated a. A water level survey, they. We cooperated with them, the Navy cooperated with them. We varied pumping a halava shaft, they varied pumping at Red Hill Shaft, and they tried to measure the response across the valley, and they found a definite response across the valley where one.

When one well, say, Red Hill shaft was shut off, but Halawa was pumping, they can measure the effect of halawa pumping on the Red Hill side. So it's like. It's like I used the analogy back in 202122 of a glass of water with different straws.

One straw, the Navy straw from the one side of that glass on the Red Hill side, and the other side is the Halawa side of the glass with our Halawa shaft and our other wells, we all draw from the same glass, the same connected.

That makes even more sense to have you monitoring wells if they're connected, because you're concerned about it. So. Yeah. All right. Thank you, Chair.

Sure. Any further questions? If not Members, you don't mind, we're just going to go straight into taking the vote on these measures for Senate Bill 233 relating to climate resilience. Having heard all of the testimony and all in support, the recommendation is going to be to pass this measure out as is any discussion if not.

Senator Chang, I vote yes for SB233.

Chair's recommendation is to pass unamended. Chair votes. I, Vice Chair. Board's eye. Senator. Decoy. Senator Richards. Aye. Senator Favelo as excused. The recommendation is adopted.

Thank you. The next Bill is Senate Bill 492, relating to the General excise tax. Would like to make a couple of amendments to this measure. DHHL pointed out that right now they cannot benefit from this measure, and we'd like to allow them, if they.

They see fit, that affordable housing be placed on DHHL lands, that they can somehow in the future, potentially benefit from this. So we're going to take one of their amendments.

On page four lines six to eight of the Bill remove the language that reads shall not pass on those housing infrastructure costs to the developer of a housing project. And this language if we kept it in there would preclude the HHL from utilizing these funds. So we're going to take that out.

We're also going to make non substantive technical amendments effective date to 5132040 Members. Any discussion? If not Senator Chang I vote yes for SB 492.

Chair's recommendation is to pass with amendments so that four Members present. Do we have any objections or reservations Seeing none. The recommendation is adopted.

Okay. And Members were on the last measure on this agenda that is Senate Bill 1634 relating to water resources. Having heard the testimony from Mr.

Lau and the Board of Water Supply would like to add language on page four lines of essentially allowing him to use this money for six monitoring wells instead of what is outlined in the Bill of two monitoring wells.

And we like to he also mentions that we should have a Senate sentinel monitoring system to really allow him and the public to understand how the water is flowing. So we would like to put that as an appropriate as a appropriate monitoring program and appropriate of being funded by this Bill and also make technical non substantive amendments.

Any discussion? If not Senator Chang I vote yes.

For SB 1634 chairs recommendations to pass with amendments for the four Members present. Are there any objections or reservations seeing none the recommendations.

Great. Thank you Members.

We are.