Senate Standing Committee on Hawaiian Affairs

Hello, everyone. This is the Joint Committee of Hawaiian affairs and Water and Land. We're here for Senate Bill 4. I am Chair of the Committee on Hawaiian Affairs. Chair.

Yes, thank you. Aloha. Happy Tuesday. And we are here, the Committee on Water and Land. And my Vice Chair is Senator Elefante. And we do have Senator Ecourt here as well. And just to let you know that they are. This week is deadline week for all our bills.

So you'll be seeing Members coming in as well later in between their hearings. So there's more to come as well. Thank you, Chair.

Okay, thank you. Just a little bit of housekeeping before we get started. We have only one measure on the docket. This meeting is being streamed live on YouTube testifiers. Please be aware there's a two minute time limit to ensure that people have their chance to have their voice heard.

If we have any temporary technical glitches, we'll try to get them corrected and get you back on, especially for the zoom. Testifiers appreciate your understanding. Remind you that the Committee has your written testimony. So if you'd like to stand on your written testimony, we do appreciate that.

If you are interested in reviewing written testimonies, please go to the Legislature's website. There you'll find a link to. On the status page for that test, for that testimony. So moving forward for our testifiers, I see Director Chang just walked in. And you are first up on Senate Bill number four. We have Director Dawn Chang in person.

Director Chang. Yeah. Back at the podium. Chair, Sorry.

Just. Just a few minutes. No worries. Talk story.

We're good.

And. And sorry about that. Because both of our chairs try to make it as. As more comfortable, but we found out with this room that that podium cannot be moved. So. So we have to work with whatever we have. Aloha.

Okay. So thank you, Chair. Thank you, Director Chang. Please go ahead. You have two minutes.

Aloha Mai Kakoum, Chair Inouye and Chair Richardson and Members of the Committee. My name is Dawn Chang and I am Chairperson of the Board of Land and Natural Resources. We have submitted written testimony and we're going to stand on that. But I did want to provide a little bit of elaboration.

You know, over the last several months, we have been working with OHA and I. We want them to be successful. We have agreed to transfer certain lands to them subject to their due diligence, including Kahana Valley and a parcel in Waimanalo. And we do believe that. That.

That the process that we've outlined in that process, including due diligence, including community outreach and engagement, that that's a good process. So our feeling is we're providing comments today. Our testimony has provided some factual information about what, how we manage Mauna Allah, the different responsibilities, some of the costs associated with that.

But I think fundamentally for us, we're here to provide, to answer any questions you may have. But it's also to say I think we'd like to continue to engage in a conversation with OHA. We think that we'd like to finalize those parcels that we have mutually agreed to, like Kahana Valley, before we embark on something new.

So that's really the the essence of my testimony today. Thank you very much, Committee.

Thank you, Director Chang. Moving on, we have Hailama Farden.

Chairs Richards and Chairs Inouye and Honored Senators. Aloha Nuikako. The Office of Wine affairs and I stand on the testimony which I submitted, and I apologize because we submitted twice, once officially under the Office of Hawaiian affairs and once personally under me. It is the same testimony.

I did want to like the previous speaker, the Honorable Dawn Chang. I wanted to thank her and I wanted to just highlight a few of the comments that I have.

First of all, that beyond that which is submitted to use stewardship must be about empowering proper protection, access and maintenance for all for all, rather than being controlled by any individual or any group. And the Office of Wine affairs engages in this actively.

And according to some of the criticism that you may hear, the Office of Wine affairs faced financial scrutiny in the past and it has already taken corrective measures to improve financial oversight, including increased transparency through public audits and financial reports, stronger financial policies implemented under recent leadership to ensure responsible spending, to reform measures supported by the Hawaiian community and even this Legislature, and enhance accountability.

And as already mentioned by the Honorable Don Chang manages several properties, culturally historic significant lands, including Waukele Opuna, including Palauea, and including Kukaniloko itself, demonstrating its capability in land management and overseeing. OHA is comprised and led by Kanaka, including some of us with extensive background in Hawaiian history, culture, language and stewardship.

It has consistently supported the preservation of sacred sites. Also the OHA board action we consider ILM 25:2 it was to establish preliminary discussion and do due diligence. This offers public input, and that is still being sought.

Contrary to Mahalo Nui and I wanted to share our aloha that the Office of Hawaiian Affairs, of course, will continue working with its partnership with DLNR as well as the native Hawaiian engaged stakeholders to include the Ali Trust, Mala Nuiloya Oko.

Okay, thank you. Moving on. Randy Pereira, thank you very much. Moving on. Coline Aiu.

Aloha Chairman Richards and Aloha Chairman Inouye and also other Senators who are here. My name is Coline Aiu and I am the kuhinanui of the Daughters and Sons of the Hawaiian Warriors, Māmakakaua. And we are against Senate Bill 4, the Daughters and Sons of the Hawaiian Warriors Month. Makakoa is a genealogical society.

They were royalists and patriots who supported and often advised the Ali'I. The AHU is our main regalia. Our AHU does not reflect service to our rank, service or rank within our organization. The designs on our AHU are unique to each wearer's genealogy.

We are here to say that we cannot confirm, we cannot agree, and we are against the transfer of the stewardship, the land deed, the rules, policies and procedures that DLNR wants to transfer over to OHA. Unauthorized and questionable spending, lavish expenditures, mismanagement of trust funds, fraud allegations, trustees misconduct, Legislature and legal fallout, internal conflicts.

These issues have not only undermined public trust in the Office of Hawaiian Affairs, but also diverted critical resources away from programs meant to benefit Native Hawaiians in housing, education and health. While OHA has acknowledged the need for improvement and implemented some changes, challenges persist in ensuring long term accountability and fiscal responsibility.

We ask that you would consider our request to have more public informational briefings, opportunities for more public testimony. We recommend that OHA take no action, cease all further detail efforts as in their ILM25 2. And we believe that the General Hawaiian Ike can come together and solve the problem of process and selection.

And from process and selection, through land management, the people of Hawaii can do this. Mahalo nui for your time, and I am available to answer any questions that you might have. Mahalunui.

Mahalo, and thank you so much. Moving on. James Maioho.

Aloha. Good afternoon, Senators. My name is James J. Kalemamamohu, Crowning Bird Maioho. I am the eldest mopuna of Lilia Pia Namahana Ikaleokalani Taylor Myoho, longest serving kahu of Mauna'ala and a representative of the descendants of Honolulu who have lived on those grounds until last year, since 1893.

I stand on my written testimony for some of the background of how we got to this day. So really, the question is the answer to what to do that's best for Mount Olive. It is certainly not a state park. The Organic act is very clear in its language that it is not a state park.

It was set aside for the royal families, one of which I happen to represent as a family burial ground. And as the language of the Organic Act is restricting us to keeping this within some sort of state inventory, we should really consider all the language of the Organic Act. So is SB4 the best for Mount Allah? Maybe.

The original language as submitted by Senator Noye. I'm nervous about. I have given you and I believe the Clerk has put in amended language that provides a mechanism for checks and balances between a state agency and also our family or the Kahu or anybody who's serving in the capacity of operations of Mauna Allah.

That makes me less nervous. Otherwise, the language is pretty wide open to what OHA or anybody else may want to do with the place. And Mount Owl is not a parade ground. We aren't here to reinvent the wheel. We are here for one purpose only.

To make sure that the Evie that are buried there are protected and respected in the most effective way. So I would support it going through Committee with the amended language and letting the greater body of politicians vote on it with public input.

Thank you. Moving on. Demont Kalai Manole.

Aloha Mai Kakou. My name is Dimon Kalaya Manole, Co Manager, Hope Manapono llc. Native Wine Advocacy Corporation operating on the Waianae Coast. And first, I'd like to say how's it up there? Especially Samantha DeCorte, west side Representative Senator. But I want to clarify that when I stated that we strongly oppose, strongly opposes DLNR's participation in.

In the continuing of. Of caring for Mauna'allah to me, we gotta get DLNA out of our business. You know, DLNR is strictly a state agency. You know, while they have lands that belong to us in trust, they have never truly been recognizing of us, the Kanaka, for our lands.

They make it difficult for us to be able to participate in nation building because they think that they own all our lands and control all our lands without us. So I like to make that clear.

Number two, I'd like to stress that as a Kanaka, not Native Hawaiian or whatever, but as a Kanaka, I like reach out one olive branch to Oha.

Now that we get new leadership over there with Pohana Stacy, with Kaikahele as a board of trustees chair, I think it's time that OHA can now come back to the fold for us. Because in the past OHA has misled us and it created chaos for us, those Kanaka on the ground.

I'd like to give due respect to the daughters of the Trust that spoke earlier. While it is true that they represented Ali in the past, for 132 years, we've been void of that leadership. So it's time that our leadership come back to all of us.

So I'd like to say that I support the bill in the sense that OHA will gain control of Mauna Allah and later on maybe Iolani palace. And then we can build our nation. Aloha.

Aloha and thank you. Moving on then. Alale, are we here in the room? Okay. All right. All right. I was told Malia Kyokalole is in the room to testify. Okay, I'm not seeing. Moving on. I'm told we have a testifier on Zoom. IT, do we have someone on Zoom? Thank you. Go ahead. You have two minutes.

Introduce yourself, please.

Aloha Chair, Vice Chair, Members. Jacob Aki on behalf of Ke One o Kākuhihewa, the Oahu Council of the Association of Hawaiian Civic clubs.

Representing over 1400 Members from 26 civic clubs island wide, our org was the first to raise concerns about the curator selection process for Mauna'ala in October of 2023, recognizing the urgent need for transparency and proper stewardship of this very sacred place.

For decades, Mauna Allah has suffered from neglect, lack of oversight and mismanagement, requiring millions in repairs, while failing to uphold the dignity and sanctity of this very sacred Vahipana. Our Members volunteer at Mauna'lla multiple times per month, every month, demonstrating our deep Kuleana to ensure its proper care.

Mauna Ala is not a state park and it should not be treated as one. It must be cared for by those with cultural integrity, knowledge, expertise, and more importantly, leadership. OHA is the right org to lead this effort because of its constitutional mandate to protect Native Hawaiian interests.

OHA has proven its ability to steward sacred sites such as Kukaniloko, which also works with one of our Member clubs, the Hawaiian Civic Club of Wahiawa, to ensure that there is community in involvement and cultural responsibility and care. This is more about. This is more than just management.

It is about ensuring that Mauna Allah is protected and cared for by an org with a constitutional duty to. To safeguard this very sacred place. We stand in support of the bill and we are available if you have any questions. Thank you, Chairs.

Thank you. Okay, that is the end of all the testifiers that have been registered. Is there anybody else in the room that would like to testify, Please?

Chair, Vice Chair, Members and those in attendance today. Aloha.

Aloha.

My name is Robert Quartero. I'm a lineal descendant of Ho Lulu, cousin to James Mai Oho, My Tutu Mariah Beckley was appointed by Queen Iliokalani, her cousin at the time, to be the caretaker, curator and Kahu of Maunaala. And the family has been managing those positions since 1839 until this last change with Dawn Chong.

So I stand on my testimony that I submitted and I'd like to add. So I support OHA, and I like to give the ALINA analytical framework why I support the transition to OHA. I appreciate the LNR sitting with the family and attempting to reconcile the changes that's been occurred.

And because it hasn't been something where we feel it's sufficient. I'd like to bring up Kapaakai Oka Ina versus the Land Use Commission, where the Hawaii Supreme Court articulated an analytical framework to assist state agencies in balancing the state's obligation to.

To protect traditional and customary practices against private property as well as competing public interest by requiring specific findings and conclusions about One, the identity and scope of valued cultural, historical or natural resources in the relevant area, including the extent to which traditional and customary Native Hawaiian rice are exercised in the relevant areas Two, the extent to which those resources, including traditional and customary Native Hawaiian rights, will be affected or impaired by the proposed action.

And lastly, three, the feasible action, if any, to be taken by the agency to reasonably protect Native Hawaiian rights if they are found to exist. And despite our working with DLNR, we feel that for whatever reasons, they have had challenges in exercising protection of traditional and customary rights.

And so it is for these reasons that I support this bill. SB. 4 and lastly, I'd like to say that the family recognizes James Myoho as Kahu of Mauna Law. Although he's not referred to that by many in the public, there are Members of the public who recognize James. Yeah. So thank you.

I'm here for any questions, if you have any questions.

Okay. Thank you.

Thank you.

Okay, we have reached the end of the people who wanted to testify. Senators, are there any questions for our testifiers? Yeah. Senator. Oh, would you like to testify? Okay. Please go ahead.

Aloha chairs, vice chairs, and members of the committees.

Aloha.

My name is Ian Keali’i Custino, and I'm here representing Hale o Na Ali'i Hawai'i. We strongly Support Senate Bill 4, which transfers the stewardship of the royal mausoleum Mauna 'Ala from the Department of Land and Natural Resources to the Office of Hawaiian Affairs.

As the only Hawaiian royal society that continues an unbroken link to Ali'i burial practices since the Hawaii Hawaiian Kingdom era, we feel Mauna 'Ala must remain under the stewardship of an entity that understands and upholds these sacred traditions. We believe that OHA understands this and is the right steward for Mauna 'Ala, as affirmed in Hawai'i Revised Statutes 1033.

OHA serves as the principal public agency responsible for programs and activities relating to Native Hawaiians, making it the natural steward for a site of Mauna 'Ala's importance and is further supported by Hawai'i Revised Statutes 1034 and 10H2.

Hale o Na Ali'i Hawai'i respectfully urges this committee to pass Senate Bill 4 and transfer the stewardship of Mauna' Ala along with his associated maintenance funding to the Office of Hawaiian Affairs. This transfer will restore proper oversight, cultural competency, and accountability to the caretaking of this most sacred site. Mahalo.

Thank you. Okay, now we are at the end of the people that asked to testify. Just had a few people walk in. Is there anybody else that would like to testify? Yes, go ahead.

Aloha. My name is Roy Nakamura Konohiki. First of all, the land transfer is all illegal. The state never did answer if we were annexed to the United States. They're not answering even allodial title lands. So how can you people transfer allodial title lands, which is crown lands, royal patent lands, or even ceded lands.

The lands were all stolen from the beginning, from the invasion of the Queen to the illegal annexation by William McKinley. President William McKinley. All this is corrupted. And did you folks know that Hawai'i is the most corrupted state in America? So I thank you folks and aloha.

Thank you. Anyone else?

Hi. Thank you so much. My name is Malia Tsuchiya. I'm testifying as an individual. Just really quickly, I want to, first of all, thanks DLNR. Thank DLNR for all of their efforts and maintenance and resources. I want to thank the state for the resources and efforts that have been put in to maintain Mauna 'Ala.

I also want to thank OHA for stepping up and addressing the issues that have come up. And for me right now, in looking in the broad scope of things, it really, for me comes down to fiscal responsibility, financial responsibility, and cultural preservation. So previously, DLNR and the state, we're very thankful have had the resources to be able to do that and we're very grateful for that.

But in present day, OHA also now has the resources, the financial capability, but in addition has the ability to provide cultural preservation and really bring to the people the access that is needed to preserve culture and practices.

All things being considered right now, I feel that OHA is in a much better position to provide for the people in broad scope because they are financially capable and they can do things that DLNR cannot. In particular, cultural preservation, access to EV and really bringing the lands back to the people. So I am in full support of SB 4 and I hope that you do pass this bill and I hope that it is transferred to OHA for the preservation ball. Thank you.

Thank you. So now for the final last call. Anybody else wants to testify? Seeing none. Senators, open up for questions. Senator Inouye.

Thank you, Chair, and mahalo to all of you for being here today. But my question is with regards to DLNR, to the parks and Chair Chang, with regards to, and let me explain the discussion that I'm asking some information that I think we all need to understand the agreement with the MOU that was started back in an agreement with the royal parties and the state.

And this was documented in December and the early part of 2014, 2013, and 2014. And I'm sure that DLNR understands the contribution that the royal parties have been involved with Mauna 'Ala from the early 1900s. And for those of you who are sitting here, just to let you know, we did hear some comments about the contributions from DLNR as well as hopefully maybe OHA.

But whatever the decision is made today, I do want to make sure that the royal parties are the ones that is responsible and has been the forefront of Mauna 'Ala. And let me explain in just a few seconds, Chair and Curt, that the MOU that was designed to maintain Mauna 'Ala was created by the forefathers and the royal parties.

And for those of you that are not familiar, they include the Lunalilo Trust, the Queen Liliʻuokalani Trust, the Queen's Hospital, the trustees of the estate of Bernice Pauahi Bishop, Charles Reed Bishop Trust, and the Abigail Kawānanakoa Foundation. Now there is an agreement that was made with the state and just to understand that not only is DLNR the responsibility of maintaining Mauna 'Ala, but also the trust and the royal parties that I've noticed. So my question to DLNR and I'm sorry.

Because when we did have the informational briefing, we did get some educational that we all lacked at the Capitol, but we didn't have time to understand the DLNR's role. So question, Chair and Curt, is that the contributions that the state we contribute our annual funding for the upkeep. Now my question is have we had the annual contributions from the royal parties and the trusts? I've noticed.

Okay, no, thanks for the question and before I start to respond, I want to thank you guys for hosting this. I think the community needs to have these discussions. I think it's pretty cathartic for everybody. This is a supreme responsibility and it's not taken lightly by DLNR.

And, and at this point I'm here to learn and listen more than speak. But in answer to your question, the relationship with the elite you trust financially, and I think one of the other speakers mentioned it for years and years they carried a lot of the burden of the fiscal responsibility because State Parks just didn't have the finances. And it's not like a fund where money is put in.

It's project by project by project. The primary kuleana for each of the trusts is their respective, you know, where their EVR to make sure that those tombs are in good condition. And then when we can collaborate, you know, we do can mix resources. And the Kawānanakoa Foundation has been a huge contributor recently in improving landscaping and replacing a lot of the royal palm that we needed to replace.

It's only been recently that State Parks now has the fiscal resources to kind of pay back in terms of how the trusts have helped us manage mount you know, for all these years. And now we're reinvesting with some of our new income from special fund.

But it's a collaborative effort and they meet once a month more or less and discuss what needs to be done, you know, what type of additional maintenance, you know, things of that nature. So it's a constant discussion on how do we work together to maintain Mauna 'Ala.

Okay, so the question is, did the state receive any resources annually or just the management? Because what I read is that the introduction of the MOU was recognizing that the state receives funds for the maintenance, as you mentioned, of the grounds and the buildings. And it was notified by the trusts that the state has limited funds.

But with the financial support of the royal parties, the task of the restoration of the royal mausoleum and the grounds and maintenance of the tombs grave size chapel buildings at Mauna 'Ala can be perpetuated into the future. But I'm. So what role did the trust play? And did we receive like monies that annually to the state? According to what I understand is the trusts were supposed to contribute their share.

No, it's more of collaborative spending like I had said, on projects. The, the state does the, the, the mundane, the mowing of the lawn, the paying of the utilities, you know, the caretaking. It's the value added repairs, maintenance and improvements where the, the trusts and the state collaborate, but not a direct appropriation to us. Yeah.

So if I can. Dawn Chang, Chair of the Board, if I can further elaborate. Senator, that's a really good question. So the MOU identifies where we have shared responsibility. We defer to the respective Ali'i trusts and foundations to malama their own. Their own facilities.

So to that extent they will repair what we provide and then we take care of those areas that we consider common. The grounds, like the restrooms, like the house. But there is actually, and we also, and like Curt said, they meet monthly. They meet to discuss capital improvement projects.

They meet to coordinate if there's going to be some kind. So recently there's a tree on at Mauna 'Ala that needs to be tended to. So that's part of the discussions with the Elite U Trust. So there is, we also provide.

So our State of Start Preservation Division and our State Parks archaeologists also works with them to ensure that things are done in, you know, they're in compliance with Chapter 6e. So they all work collaboratively together. I do want to make one other final point too.

When last year when there was questions raised about the selection of the curator, I met with both the Ali'i Trust to discuss this. Also with some members of the Native Hawaiian community organizations as well as with the Maoho Ohana.

I mean, we just believe that that was respectful to meet with those families, those communities, those stakeholders who really had a connection to place. And that's culturally appropriate. You start off from there first. So we also raised the question about OHA. No decision was made.

I'm not going to speak on behalf of anybody as they can all speak on their own behalf. But we did want to discuss with them what were their feelings about a potential transfer to Office of Hawaiian Affairs. So that's. Those are the kinds of things that we believe is collaboration before big decisions are made. Those stakeholders are engaged with that discussion. Okay, thank you.

Yeah, it's just a matter of the responsibilities. We wanted to make sure that DLNR has contributed and continues to contribute under its present, I guess, our system. But it's interesting because the 2005 facilities asset management evaluation that was prepared by the Charles Reed Bishop Trust identified, you know, the intermediate and the long range plans, the needs for the care.

So the trust portions and I guess the part of the family's contributions are pretty much are done by the trust then. Renovations, upgrading, upkeeping, they have been doing their responsibilities. But no financial resources comes to the state from the trust.

No, you're correct.

Oh, okay. It's just an understanding. I thought we did receive annually, you know, a sum, a dollar figure, so that the DLNR takes over the maintenance. But that's not true because part of the families that are responsible for their kuleana with Mauna 'Ala has been done by them as well and the trust.

So they will take care of their respective crypts, tombs. We take care of the grounds also. Also the caretaker's home and the restroom. We pay. We use our state, our state park special fund to do that. But yes, each one of the trusts and the Ali'i trusts and those foundations, they take care of their own.

So even the Abigail Kawānanakoa Foundation, the, the payment for that crypt, the placement, construction, that was all done by the foundation.

Okay, mahalo, Chair.

Thank you, Chair. Other questions? Senator Keohokalole.

Thank you for OHA. I'm not sure based off of the language, what is being proposed in the bill as it relates to the state sheriff, the upkeep. Is the bill proposing that I don't see explicit language requiring the state to continue to contribute to the maintenance of the of Mauna 'Ala. Is that being proposed?

And perhaps I can. Just to add, Chair. Senator, Just to add that the request did come from oha, but in creating this measure, I did not include that portion that OHA requested. But their earlier request was to include to continue the state funding if it's transferred to OHA. But I deliberately left it out because I thought by the time if this measure passes, then the monies committees should address that at the wish of OHA.

Okay, thank you for the clarification. I can change my question then.

Yes.

There is no House Bill and this is not an OHA Administration package. Can you explain why? Because I know that there's a. Well, I'm not sure actually whether there's an OHA process to having legislation be included in the OHA package.

Yes, you're correct, Senator. It. It wasn't part of our administrative ask in conversation after CNHA where, you know, the conversation around the transfer of Mauna 'Ala, you know, we did engage with Senator Inouye who was happy to bring forth this legislation. So, you know, it wasn't added to our package.

However, we are putting the transfer of Mauna 'Ala and the due diligence of it through our, our due diligence process through our Investment Land Management Committee. So, you know, kind of like two vehicles. There's kind of two vehicles in which this is moving. And yes, there is no House Bill. So we are, we are hoping that the Senate Bill remains, getting traction and will cross over.

And so the. Okay, so now my question about the money, because if those, if this was an OHA administrative bill or as you work through the board of trustees, you know, the public process associated with that, is it OHA's position at this point to come back and request funding from the state for the state's current kuleana for the operation and maintenance of the.

Yeah, I think it would be appropriate that the current fiscal appropriations that are provided to DLNR would be also afforded to the Office of Hawaiian affairs if this kuleana does get transferred to, to OHA. We would welcome that. Yes.

Thank you. Thank you, Chair. Thank you. Any other questions?

Yeah, I want to follow up, I guess DLNR. Did they leave? They don't know they're there. So I share Senator Keohokalole's concern. It sounds like to me this is putting the cart before the horse. And my concern is we're going to give you folks the stewardship but no monies to maintain it.

Or does OHA have monies for this? And my question to DLNR is, do you have a program ID specifically for Mauna 'Ala, so that in the event, because it does go to WAM, that we can just do in the WAM section, transfer the program ID over to OHA.

Good question. It doesn't have a specific program ID. Under LNR 806, the salaries for all of the maintenance workers are coming out of the general funds. Then the utilities, water, and power is typically coming out of our general fund appropriation.

All of the value added new things we're doing, like renovation of the caretaker's cottage is coming out of our special fund revenue rather than asking for CIP. So it is a lump sum of LNR 800 and 6G funds that funds the salaries and the utilities for Mauna 'Ala.

Okay. And maybe I'll have talk to OHA next.

And Senator, if I may just add to that, while DLNR provided comments, we're not necessarily saying we're going to transfer. I think we'd like to see a lot more discussion. We think we're doing a good job. We don't think that there's reason, but we think if this, if this is where the, if this is where the Legislature wants to go, we're saying that there just needs to be more conversation as well as more due diligence on this acquisition.

Because on all of our lands that we transfer through executive order, any form, none of our, for example, our state parks rules don't go nor does enforcement. So DOCARE will not be enforcing on lands that is not under currently DLNR's management. So just wanted to clarify that.

Thank you. So Stacy, you worked in WAM. I mean, how are you going to. How do we expect. My concern I guess is echoed by those in opposition here and that is if we do this transfer, will you folks have the monies to keep up and maintain Maun 'Ala and hopefully or are we just transferring it and hoping you guys get the money?

No, Senator, I would hope that it would be. We would have more precision on, on the funding. So it would be great if this body would amend the current Bill in front of you to incorporate an appropriation. I think it's about $300,000 annually that DLNR expense on the care and maintenance of Mauna 'Ala.

If that could be inserted so that when it goes over to ways and means, that would be the consideration before them. So it wouldn't be a program ID specifically, but it would just be a lump sum appropriation based off of what DLNR currently expends annually.

Okay, thank you very much.

Senators. Any other questions? Okay, seeing none people in the room have witnessed the testimony and those of you read the online testimonies available to the group. Senator Inouye and I discussed hearing Senate Bill 4 transfer of Mauna 'Ala and see where we're going to go with this.

We agreed to do that because this is exactly what I wanted to find out, get input from the community. I've read all the testimony, but more than that, I've talked story with people, I've talked story with responsible groups that have a kuleana with all of this and did not submit testimony.

I think what's been articulated this afternoon shows the complexity of this. This isn't just about a transfer. There's more to it than that. Because of that, I'm inclined to defer this because we don't have enough talk story yet. We don't have a firm direction that we need to go.

And am I convinced DLNR is the right housing of this? Not entirely. But I'm also not convinced that moving to OHA is the right thing yet. We need to have a better understanding with all of the people giving input. Before I make the final recommendation, are there any Senators would like to make a comment.

Just a comment, just to add, and certainly, as you indicated as well, the discussions that we had started from last year, and we appreciate the informational briefing that we had. So we've come a long way, but not quite there as yet. We're still getting educated and appreciate that you will hear.

You know, you've heard this message from Senate Bill 4 that puts out out to the front and to communities that, you know, we need to recognize, as I did say last year, that this is something of importance to Hawai'i and we need to make sure that Mauna 'Ala continues to survive until we all pass away.

It's a cultural aspect. We need to recognize that there needs to be a foundation that continues, but also that it moves along in a smooth path, as I indicated before. It seems like again, and I go back to say we have administrations change every eight years or every four years.

And for me, being a local person growing up in Hawai'i, and my dad always said he came from the Philippines and he always said, you respect the Hawaiian people on the lands that we have been here and that we need to keep the tradition alive. And I just want to say, just thank you, you know, for hearing the measure so we can continue this.

But there's a point in time, hopefully, before we all leave this capital in the years to come, that we have Mauna 'Ala and the goal that needs to be perpetuated by our Ali'is and transferred to the families whose responsibilities and the trusts that there's some clarity and the end where we can all feel comfortable.

Yes, I think we are happy with the plans that we have guided through and make sure that it's all pono. But there's, you know, and I appreciate the opportunity that you've given us this morning to hear this because there's still much work to do. We'll be working with DLNR and make sure that hopefully in the near future that we can come to some agreement that our Hawaiian people, to me, respect the culture, but be the resident caretaker for Mauna 'Ala. Okay, thank you.

Thank you, chair. So with that, the conversation is not pow, but it is the recommendation of this chair to defer this measure.

Okay, thank you. And the Committee on Water and Land confirms that this measure is deferred.

Thank you. We're.