Senate Standing Committee on Education

Good afternoon everyone. Welcome to the Committee on Higher Education. We are in room 229. Today's Wednesday, February 4th. In the unlikely event that we must abruptly end this hearing due to technical difficulties, accommodation Committee will reconvene to discuss any outstanding business on Friday, February 6th at 1pm in Conference Room 2 to 9.

And a public notice will be posted in the legislature's on the Legislature's website in light of the five measures before the Committee and the number of testifiers testimony, but limited to 1 minute per testifier and if there are any technical issues during your testifying.

If you're online or on Zoom, please note that the Committee has your written testimony on file and we appreciate your understanding.

In the event there is any kind of glitches today's hearing we are receiving measures on various bills and starting with Senate Bill 2024, this bill requires the School Facilities Authority to establish a pilot program to develop three new public schools through private public partnerships.

It authorizes SFA School Facilities Authority to use various public private partnership models including long term leases, leasebacks, acquisitions or sales of land and assets and requires interim and final reports to the Legislature and appropriate funds to administer the pilot program. So with that, our first testifier is our Superintendent of Education Keith Hayashi DOE.

Good afternoon. Chair, Members of the Committee, Jesse Suki, I'm Deputy Superintendent of Operations testifying for the Department. We stand our testimony which has comments and is available for questions. Thank you.

Okay, thank you. Thank you. Riki Fujitani, SFA.

Thank you. Committee and Chair Riki Fujitani with the School Facilities Authority. The School Facilities Authority supports this bill. The the cost for building schools in Hawaii is has gone way too far. We average over six times the national average at this moment in time.

There's 17 schools in various stages of that need to be that have been identified for new for replacement. Nine state, eight military. That's a 3.4 billion dollar construction budget which at this time the state can afford. So Hawaii needs to look at new models and this is one new model. Thank you.

Thank you. Ed Noh for Charter School Commission Good.

Afternoon Chair, Vice Chair, Members of Committee. Ed Noh, Executive Director, State Public Charter School Commission and we stand in strong support this in on our written testimony as well and appreciate the opportunity as a possible pathway for charter schools and. Facilities long time coming. Thank you very much.

Thank you. David Nashiro.

Hello. Chair Kim, Vice Chair Kidani, Members of the Committee, I'm David San Miyashiro, Executive Director of Hawaii Kids Can. Hawaii Kids can stands on our written testimony in strong support of SB 2024 with a few notes.

Given the variance in local communities that are aging or growing rapidly, the status quo is inadequate for providing high quality school access to families. At the same time, we know that there is local knowledge and ingenuity to bring innovative thinking to school facilities.

We also recognize that facility agencies like the Hawaii School Facilities Authority can bring an additional resources and expertise off of school teams to make gold out of peanuts. Please help us SB 2024 as a way to help more families access high quality school facilities without burning some wait times. Mahalo.

Thank you. Matthew Satelo . Hope I said that correctly.

Allah Chair, Vice chair and Committee Members. My name is Matt Satelo and I am the Executive Director of Hawaii Technology Academy HTA , the state's largest public charter school. We have campus on four islands and six sites across four islands in a fully virtual program.

We are currently at around 2,200 students enrolled, which over the past four years has been about a 60% increase. And even with that growth, we still are experiencing extensive wait lists and particularly in southwest Oahu. And we really.

I'm here to just sort of put a face to HTA and to public schools needs and to just really be in strong support of SB 2024 and. All INUI for your time.

Okay, thank you. See Alec Morentek. Okay, we have a number of individuals that gave comments and also in support, but anyone in this room wishing to testify that I didn't call on or you have a need to speak, if not Members, we're open for questions and I guess sfa.

So how, how will you work in coordination with DOE as far as doing these projects or is there not a need to work with them?

So this is agnostic to the type of score. It could be a public school, it could be a public charter school.

So the RFP would not specify that it could be either or what the bill does is what it seeks to do is just to create a procurement process to let the private side work with schools to come up with innovative ideas on how to do this with less state funding, whether it be mixed use, whether it be use of land.

You know, it's kind of like a concept award. And this concept has been done in several other jurisdictions.

One of the most prominent one is in Maryland where the initial tranche was six schools and they've increased it to 14 as a result, where they literally built 14 new schools within like eight years and refurnished their entire district for footprint. So that's the model is let's try something different.

Okay. And so what kind of measurements will we be able to institute that will let us know whether it's been more cost effective. Right.

So all this is, is the RFP. So the intent is to put an RFP award concept award. It's kind of like a two step. This then allows a real detailed pro forma plan where you can clearly understand what the private side's gonna put in.

What if there is a need for a state contribution, what it is, what the terms are. And then each of those would be a decision based that the ledge would have to pass subsequently in the next biennium. All this does is lay down the planning concept for it. Yeah.

And the procreation is being asked for $3 million.

Right. The idea is what they call, you typically call this capture money. It's like with the Alawai Bridge. Right. The first step is award three teams, seed them with half a million dollars and they develop a more detailed plan for subsequent awards.

So the 3 million would be used to either give them half a million or 750,000 to then flush it out within the next biennium. And then that's when the decisions have to be made based upon their pro forma and what their proposal is. We don't know what it's going to be like.

It's going to be pretty wide open. Each, each sector or each proposal will have a different model.

So at the end of the day we have these performance or these models, but then we still have to pull the trigger. Put on, put, put in the money in order to get reality right.

And that we don't know. Some may be very little, some may be a lot. Right. We won't know until we get the private side to come up with different ideas on how to attack this problem.

So what kind of criteria would you be using to make to determine which communities or which pilots are selected or which projects are selected?

Right. Clearly the sectors are where the high need is, which is really west leeward central Oahu. Right. That's where the huge need is. I mean if you look at right now, there are probably six schools in design in that area. But the cost to Fund those schools is astronomical.

So that would be the best area for this to be targeted. Especially since in those areas there are big developers where there is a huge need for them to have a school as part of their property development.

This is not like on the mainland where it's almost like an amenity for the school, I mean for the property developer to have a school. Right. But in this case they might come up with an innovative idea to build it for the state.

And finally, does this bill include the non chartered public schools?

No, I mean the intent would be just those governed by the public charter commission and DOE schools.

Okay, questions. So after the RFP process, what is the timeline after that's been completed?

Right. Ideally we want to come in the next biennium budget and then have these proposals for the Legislature to vet whether they decide to Fund it or not. Because each of these will be real unique in the deal crafted by the private team that has formed this all up. Right.

The team based in couple A might be radically different than that of central Oahu or other key regions where we need schools, but that's where the vast majority of school need is. Based upon data.

By the next biennial, then you'll be able to give us a little bit more clearer. Yeah.

Our intent is three solid proposals with detailed what you get, what's the lease term, what's the state's contribution, what's the revenue stream for the housing associated with it, whether it's mixed use, you know.

So does your crystal ball tell you that there's a lot of demand, that you get a lot of proposals or.

My crystal ball says there are several good ones because the developers, those regions need schools for all the homes out there.

Right. That will be definitely interested. Yes.

That.

What if you have to wait too many? How do you manage it?

That's why we're only going to award three concept awards.

And who actually makes the decision? Do you have a Committee or just you by yourself?

No, it's like for the example in the Milani RFP, we had people that did these public partnerships before. We had Members of the community that have that experience. We had people at uh, that did two before.

So the Committee would be vetted based upon the criteria of the RFP award and that's what the award would be based upon. So it would follow 103D.303. Okay. Procurement.

Absolutely.

Right. Yes. Yeah.

Okay. And how do you see yourself working with DOE?

So they would be a propo. They may be on one of the teams proposing a school at one location. Nothing precludes any charter school, any future charter school, or the Department of Education to submit a bid with a developer on how to build a school cost effectively.

So draw me this picture. So how would DOE go with a developer to provide a.

Right like any or any other public charter school? They would say a concept that we need a school, for example, in Kapolei, and we need this school. It's going to cost us this much based upon what our requirements are to run a school. Now, if that amount can be a developer can make that deal work.

Where that property now is mixed use, where it includes both housing, school, other mixed use, then they make Annie up a sizable amount of the money to build that school. Because in addition to the school, they'll get use of their property for commercial, for housing rentals, for public parks.

Yes. So who's leading these projects? Like, who's the tip of the spear?

SFA will create the framework of the RFP, giving you all these ideas like this. And then we cast a wide net. Hopefully we get a lot of proposals. We're going to select three, seed them with more money to get deep because that's when you expend design money. You have to look at financing.

You know, money is expended more deeper.

Would you get the seed money? Is there really going to be enough for that?

Yes.

Okay. And then so in the case of DOE, DOE would work with a contractor to come up with a concept to present.

Right. Because they would have to figure out or get a partner that's willing to ante up 40, 50 million for the building of the school. So if you follow the national average on the school.

So why wouldn't they just. Partner up. And do it themselves? I mean, that's the way. Yeah.

If their proposal is they can build an elementary school for 40 or $50 million to meet their needs. And that would be one proposal. Right. But as it is right now. Right. Our preliminary estimates for schools in East Kapolei are 160 million for an elementary school, 300 million for a middle school. Right. It's a different.

It's hard to build, get a developer to ante up that kind of money for a school.

And will DOE have any role in evaluating, evaluating the adequacy of these facilities?

No, they're gonna make it part of the proposal if they're proposing it.

But I guess if it's not their proposal and say it's other proposals having to do with schools, then it will.

Be a charter school or whoever the, whoever the entity is partnering up to do the proposal.

Okay, anybody else? Okay, how about doe? So I noticed that you basically. Gave comments and you said, although the Department does not view the PPP structure in Senate Bill 2024 as compatible with the department's facility development model, PPPs may be more appropriate for startup charter schools. So can you elaborate?

Sure. There was a lot said, so just some clarify yourself. zero, Jesse Suki, Deputy Superintendent of Operations, Department of Education. Just a couple of points first one is. So we are requesting, though the board approved funding for three schools. There are about 141 million each for East Kapolei Elementary.

We're asking for planning money for another school and the Cam 3 replacement school. So. And the planning money is far less than 140. It's off the top of my head. It's less, a lot less. So it's about 141 for the other two.

So first that the second thing is the P3s at, uh, I'm very familiar with those are for student housing. And usually with P3s because it's private financing, the private financiers are looking at some sort of revenue to pay back the private bonds that they're going to get from the private bond market, usually tax exempt.

So when you're doing stuff like affordable housing, which I've done, student housing, which I've done, there's revenue generated so that the pro forma pencils out because there's payments over time that can pay off that bond financing. So with a school like a DOE public school, there's no rents. So we depend on public financing.

The properties that SFA is referring to out west are set asides from land use commission requirements when the old Campbell estate divided up and proposed projects and lands were set aside.

And so we know that those lands are out there and as the need for schools became necessary when we're asking for funding like for East Coppola, and there's a lot of need still, but we're not using a P3 model for Department of Education because it wouldn't fit because again, there's no revenue source.

So part of the proposal talks about pilot projects. So if SFA were, for example, to do a P3 on DOE land, another way that P3s are done is that there's this thing called availability payments.

So availability payments are payments that a public agency makes so that the building that is built, owned and operated and financed by the private developer, our right to occupy it and that building be kept at a certain condition is made, you know, we pay for it through these availability payments over time.

So, you know, we wouldn't support that either unless we could get operating funds over the, you know, usually it's like a 65 year ground lease that would help us pay to be there in the building. There's also a leaseback option in the pilot.

So that's funds that we would have to have and pay to lease as the DOE. So if I could make 1.0 about P3s from a public school facility perspective, where revenues are not generated, it costs money.

Whether you do it the way we do it or the way the private sector does it, because the construction costs don't change. So what changes? What is different for a non revenue generating project? One thing you might get is guarantee that it's operated and maintained for the life of the project in a certain condition.

And you pay for that. So you have to pay for that. That's not free. But then, you know, you run into this issue of privatization, so you have to be sure that you coordinate with unions who usually operate the building, janitors and so forth.

So I think, we think, you know, in our testimony we said it would work for charter schools because charter schools have a lot more flexibility, right? They actually currently seek private funding, private partnerships for the campuses and facilities because the university, the DOE, does not build private charter school facilities.

So we in a P3 concept might work for them with this extra. I mean you have to have some kind of commercial component like SFA was talking about because you need some kind of revenue generating source. But again, I don't know how all that works because usually the revenue stream is tied to the actual facility.

So you'd have the commercial separated from the school. So who pays for it? And one last point I'd make is when you talk about building cheaper because the cost is the cost, labor, capital, land, it costs more in Hawaii, private or public. So when you talk about building for less, you're talking about building less.

So smaller classrooms, maybe you don't have a band room, maybe the cafeteria is open and it's just a pavilion. Maybe there's not as offices for Administration to meet with students if there's a fight or something. There's no privacy. These are the kind of things you're going to have to reduce so you can get to that.

I think I heard 40 million. So those are the things that you're going to have to give up. But again, it might be workable with charter schools which have more flexibility and not such a huge portfolio program that requires certain dimensions in order to offer the curriculums that we have. Thank you.

Okay, so, but this measure does not require DOE. So it could be all charter schools.

It could be right. And to that extent we support it.

The other thing is, you know, I have to beg to differ with you. The cost is the cost because there's ways of delivering it. It could be a lot less without having to sacrifice on the size and the cost.

I mean one of the ways is to cut out, cut out consultants Cut out the inefficiencies, cut out the change orders. There is so much waste going on. And what I'm concerned with DOE is that you folks are so stuck in the way it's done.

It's done the same way over and over and it's a cookie cutter and there's no change. And if we're going to try to do something new and move forward and never in all my years I thought that schools would turn into health centers, but basically that's what it is, that nurses would be giving out medication at schools.

The times have changed. Schools purposes have changed. There's ways to put teacher housing perhaps on the campuses.

But if we're not gonna open up our minds in doing some of this stuff, and if DOE is not gonna try to look at how do we change the way of delivering facilities as well as education, then we're going to be stuck into the role that we've been in before and we're not going to progress ahead.

So I think we need to have some capability of looking at these, these proposals and trying to see how in fact it'll improve the way we deliver services and not the same way doing it over and over again. I'm not sure that this is going to work, but you know, that's why it's a pilot project.

That's why we're going to start with three. And I have a couple other pilot projects that we're going to be proposing during this session for other areas that I think it would behoove us not to go ahead and do these things.

So I hope DOE will work in conjunction that it's not going to be two opposing entities because up until now the SFA and DOE, as far as facilities wise, that has what's been going on and over the years the reason that SFA was created and I was not one of the creators, but it was created because DOE was not able to do the job.

You know, you guys have been asked that or I don't know if you've been asked, but that 12 new schools were supposed to be built, if it was built only two over the 10 year period. So there's, there's issues and concerns how we're delivering these facilities.

Questions? Yeah, are you folks factoring in the escalation cost with 140 million or is that just construction?

Yeah, design. Usually when the team develops a budget, they're looking at the schedule for building. And once it's, once it's funded and we get the appropriation and it's drawn down you know, they have factored in, you know, the cost and contingencies.

What would be, I guess your prediction as far as completing those projects? If, if it does fall in your.

Folks pipeline, the budget the board approves, we would complete them.

Another building out.

What's that?

Right. The, the. So we go through the rfp, right. And then if it is a DOE school and not a charter school, then it sits in your folks, on your folks desk. What is the time period that you're projecting it's going to stay in the DOE system? So yeah, I think so.

I'll, I'll let you answer that and then I'll have a follow up.

Okay. So. So for the schools that we're asking for, two of the, the, the Kapole East Kapole elementary School, it's already designed and planned. So we actually asking for construction money. So when we get that money then you know, we issue the RFP, we get the contract to build the plans and then it's built out.

That can take about three years to build. Right. Once we get the money. Cam, the Cam 3 temp school is currently being discussed and planned and you know, working closely with DAGs and the governor's office on that one. And then the plan for Ho' Opili is a design. So we're just asking for design money right now.

And so once we get the design then we'll come back and ask for construction money.

Okay, thank you. Thank you Chair, please go ahead.

Thank you, Jesse. So this bill would expand SFA's authority over public charter schools. But my question is to date, has SFA been collaborative with DOE in their dealings with DOE and the schools facilities?

I can only talk about the time. I've been here since September and I know that my team and we have been working with SFA on for example the Central Maui Middle School. We've identified sites that they're now exploring for potential housing. I believe there's three sites that we all agreed on. The Bililani workforce housing that's being built.

Yeah, there was coordination on that. I'm not going to say that it's not without passion because on both sides we have passion, which I think is good because we all at the end of the day want to deliver, you know, some project that is going to benefit teachers and students. So but it's moving. Those things are moving.

We're collaborating.

Thank you. Really quick. So you had mentioned about availability payment. Why go that route and not geobond's route?

You know we looked into this on other projects. I've Worked on and actually geobond money is usually cheaper than private sector non taxable bonds. So. Yeah, that's a good question. So what are you getting in a P3 is the real question. Is it?

You know, the operation and maintenance is going to be taken care of over the life of the project. Do we have to make availability payments for that because there's no revenue coming in, you know, is the project going to have these other elements that generate revenue? You know, that's possible.

It's kind of an experiment to see if this is going to work, which is why I think it's a pilot. Right, thank you, Chair.

So you mentioned the three schools, East Kapolei, the Cameron placement, Hilli. So the soonest you're going to even have one building could be would be three years from now? Yeah, soonest, yeah. That's a long time. The other two are going to be another 23 years down the line.

It takes time.

Yeah, yeah, but how long ago have you guys identified these?

Well, the list of schools you've talked about, you know, we have that list and some of them have design completed and they're awaiting funding. Some of them are in design and the ones we're asking, some are in construction. But you know, we, the way we figure out what are we going to do is based on need.

Right, so, so where's the need? Because these developments come up over time.

The need for these. Been there. The needs for Kapole have been there. So then it's not just now.

Right, so the other thing I was going to say was the second thing is money. So we come in and we ask it.

Right, but you could have come in earlier and asked to. Right? I mean, again, that's the concern.

Yeah, we've asked. Yeah.

Okay, so the Kihei school, when you guys built the Kihei school, what did it cost? The final cost from task.

I have to get back to you on that. I wasn't here for that.

Sorry, but that's the most expensive school ever built in this whole state.

Is that right?

You're asking me and yet you're the. I wasn't here for that one. But whether you're here or not, I mean your head was not in the sand. I mean I, you know, I did, I wasn't doe. I didn't build the school. I don't live over there.

Yet I still am aware that the school costs a lot because there was red rock. So it would be helpful if you're going to be in this position to that, you know, the history of what's going on with facilities.

Because if you don't understand the problems that we've had and what the obstacles have been, how can you go forward? Right. Because you kind of know these things. So that's the one more expensive hard rock. The recommendation was not to build there, but we still ended up building there. And then you guys didn't put the overpass.

Nobody, you know, so you talk about cost and you talk about, you know, doing all of this stuff. Yet a lot of the issues and the downfall has been because of the lack of whatever it is that facilities at DOE has just not been able to work quickly, efficiently in getting these projects out.

So I think that's one of the biggest areas that we have to. That is facing the Department and whether or not you guys are going to be able to move forward to deliver some of these facilities.

Well, we are delivering facilities. We've delivered hundreds of classrooms, gyms, tracks, you know, all kinds of things over the year.

Yeah, you do. You've done something, but you. Maintenance and all of that. And yeah, we've put in a lot of the CIP requests and some of those things have been. Have been done. But overall, with the billion dollars worth of projects that are still on the books, that haven't been fully delivered, by the way.

And thank you for the list you updated, but you still didn't include all of the information, which boggles my mind that how many times we gotta show you what it is we wanted and what you guys gave us and we still didn't get it right? So I'm just like, I'm sorry, I.

I didn't know that you felt that is.

Okay. We're talking about that now. Okay. Okay. We're talking about this because we don't have a lot of time. But, you know, I even now lost my train of thought. Maybe dementia is setting in for me as well. But. But you know, it.

You have to be able to make school, you know, just problem after problem, cost after. We could have probably built three schools with that money. Three schools. And the timing, it's just forever for these schools. I understand some of the schools are busting at the seams in the west side.

There's a need there.

Yes. And we, We've known that for a long time. So. Okay. Any other questions? Senator Hashimoto, any questions? No. Okay. There no other questions. Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Senate Bill 2163. Okay. This is relating also to charter, public charter schools. This strengthens fiscal accountability and oversight for public charter schools by standardizing annual independent financial audits related requiring public disclosure of audits and expanding review and enforcement authority.

Authorize the auditor to conduct financial audits of the charter schools deemed high risk or for ins insolvency and requires a one time three year look back at audit for all charter schools with according to the Legislature. So with that we have office of the auditor. Not here. Okay. Are you online? Okay.

Not present on Zoom Chair.

Okay. Thank you. Hawaii State Board of Education.

Comments? Can you identify yourself, please?

Aloha, Chair Mercado Kim, Vice Chair Kidani and Members of the Committee. My name is Bill Arakaki. I'm the Vice Chair for the Hawaii Board of Education. And I'm so happy to be here. It's been a while since I've come and have made any statements.

Again, the board appreciates the legislature's concern regarding fiscal accountability and stands on the written testimony offering comments to this measure.

Okay. We may have questions for you, so thank you.

Okay. Thank you. Okay.

Ed Noh.

Good afternoon. Chair Kim, Vice Chair Kidani, Members of the Committee, Danny Vas Gonzalez Jr. Finance Director with the state Public Charter School Commission.

I was going to say, you don't look like.

I'm up to bat on this one. You have the commission's testimony. We did want to clarify and point out that charter schools, as well as the commission, conduct annual independent financial audits. We currently have four local CPA firms that conduct these audits. We're hoping to add a few more on shortly.

But again, the commission does conduct these audits. Charter schools conduct these audits. We collect this information and can provide it to the Committee upon its request. So mahalo. Thank you for the opportunity.

Okay. Why don't you sit there? Because I don't know that we. Anyone else wishing to testify? We only had three. Three testifiers. No. Okay, so we have questions. So I guess I'll. I'll start off. So what is the difference between the audits that you already do now and what is being asked for in this in this bill?

Not certain if there's a difference. It does seem that it's, you know, it clarifies against independent financial audits. So, again, these audits, we assume, would need to be conducted by CPA firms, you know, except for the case of the state auditors requests. So again, we.

It appears to be that these audits will be the same audits conducted by these independent CPA firms and not any other state agency.

So in essence, you're saying you're already audited and that you don't feel that this bill is needed.

I know with the inclusion of the state auditor in this measure, there are other concerns, especially with some of the previous conversations we've had in terms of some schools experiencing financial distress sentence that can lead to closure.

I believe that the Legislature feels that additional steps are needed to again prevent this case or at least try to get a better sense of ensuring that not only the commission, other state agencies, such as the Board of Education, and in this case, the state Auditor, if we're made aware of these things that, you know, as early as possible, that hopefully, you know, schools, things like a school closure can be avoided, especially for financial reasons.

So would you be looking at this measure to see maybe what are some of the other things that you folks can make sure your audits cover so that you don't have to have a whole separate audit?

We can definitely work with, of course, with the board of Education as well as the state auditor to ensure that the, if there are any specific items that either the Legislature requests or that either the board or the auditor feels should be included, we can definitely work with them and as well as our accounting CPA firms to see if we can incorporate them into the audit.

Okay. Questions, Members?

Questions Chair, thank you. What is your turnaround time to produce an audit? Once you have been instructed, how long does it take?

We usually start field work. At least I'll speak for the commission side. I know the charter school side, it may vary, but the commission on an annual basis has to undergo the single audit, which is the more comprehensive. It includes a compliance component versus just a standard financial audit.

So charter schools as well, if they meet that threshold of receiving for this upcoming year, it's going to be $1 million in federal funds receiving and expending. They have, they're going to cross the civil audit threshold.

On the commission side, we start field work roughly mid August and going into early September when we first set, you know, provide the information that our auditors request we go through. Our due date for the audits are November 1st.

So we're working from, like I say, about mid mid August up through November 1st to try to get that audit in by that specific due date. That due date is actually driven by the reporting requirements for our state Department of education. And they're working on their audit as well as the annual comprehensive review run by DAGs.

So three months.

Roughly. Analytics on the commission side, that's the time frame that we have and we've set up with our auditors is to again, everything is kind of pointing at that Nov. 1 deadline to have a report. Because on our side as well as with the charter school side, our commission will review and accept the audit.

And on the charter school side as well, their charter school governing board will review accept that in some cases the governing board will work through some issues with the auditors.

Yeah. What happens if that three month deadline is not met?

We have had issues with schools not being able to meet the timeline, especially this year.

Part of it was due to some of the Issues we've had on the federal level, there's a compliance supplement that's released on an annual basis that provides either additional guidelines at the federal level that was late this year, but in this case, the commission sometimes has to exercise its intervention protocol, meaning that we'll have to contact the school's governing board to essentially put them on notice.

It's called a notice of concern to put them on notice to say your audit was due on November 1st. It hasn't been submitted on time and we need to get clarification or understand what's going on and when to expect that audit.

So really no real consequences or penalties if they don't meet those deadlines.

That thing. It's something that commission we do take, you know, commissioners, our commissioners are aware of any, anything that comes up if a charter school is either habitually late or they get, you know, seems to have a lot of issues. It's something commissioners could note and decide to take further action on.

So I believe that that really is kind of the root of the problem here is that there's really no hard deadlines, which according to the state auditor's testimony is, I mean, to be, to be opening up audits for DOE would overwhelm the Department.

But that is because you folks are not imposing any hard deadlines or any real consequences for that.

If that's the issue, again, that I think the state auditor is bringing up as well as the Legislature is looking at, we can work with our auditors to let them know that, you know, I guess the ultimate consequence would be to remove that auditor from the list. We are hoping our auditors can work with our schools.

And if it's, if it's an issue like the compliance supplement that wasn't released, we do try to work with them and say, you know, we can get your financial reports and have that information that we can provide not only to our commissioners, but to DOE as well, because DOE can use those numbers to start to fill in their reports as well.

We've worked with some of our auditors to get those financial reports. It may, you know, the final audit may be a week or two away. We, so we try to exhaust every, every available avenue we have, working with.

Our own follow up. And then this would be my last follow up because instead of like how you said, remove the auditor, I believe that if you folks were to really impose some serious consequen on meeting those deadlines, then it would avoid the Legislature having to pass bills to tell you how to do your job.

So you folks not doing your job only puts more work on us to have to pass bills to tell you how to do your job. And then now we're asking the auditor to do your guys job too.

So I think that there's some real serious structure that needs to happen within the Department to ensure that you folks are more than capable, which I believe of doing the job. But when it comes time to not do your job, then there's, there's no consequences for that. So now we have to step in.

We have to pass laws to tell you guys how to use do your job. Then we got to tell the auditor to do your guys job. So that's just the point that I want to make. Thank you Chair.

Thank you. Just wanted to, since the auditor is not here and I'm not lobbying for him, but they, since they are being asked to do this, they do say we have strong reservations about the bill. Section 1 notes Public charter schools are currently required to conduct an annual financial audit.

Those audits generally need to be completed by the end of October to be included in Department of Education financial statements and relied upon for purposes of the State of Hawaii annual comprehensive financial Report. Many public charter schools do not meet the deadline.

However, Department of Education and the Commission have and should have the responsibility to enforce the deadline and compel the public Cherry School schools to timely provide the necessary financial information to enable their auditors to complete the audits. And I think that's the point that Senator DeCorte had been pointing out.

And they say they do not believe another financial audit conducted by the Office of the Auditor required by Section 5 is meaningful.

So you know, so if they're not going to do it and they don't find it meaningful, but yet there are issues, then I think it's imperative that you folks recognize some of the stuff and do take some action.

Understand Chair. We'll make sure we take this to our commissioners as agenda on one of our public meetings so we can have this discussion and share that information with you.

Thank you very much. Members, any other questions? Yes, Senator Kidani.

I think, Chair, that we should request that this body gets a list of audits where schools are failing as well as have not been sent on time.

We can provide that. This is if you're looking at any charter schools that have findings of material weakness, if that's what Vice Chair Downing, you're asking for, we can definitely provide that. We do review the findings and present that to our commissioners.

Commissioners are then able to if they want to take action on those findings, which can include additional monitoring or again, I mentioned our intervention protocol. We have a notice of concern. That's sort of the first step.

The next step would be what we call a notice of deficiency, which is essentially a formal notice that some serious compliance requirement has taken place.

I believe we did talk at length in Ways and Means about this as well. So. So yeah.

Well, I think for us to be able to get that information would give the Senators from the district or legislators from the district an opportunity to reach out to school to see is there more help needed, is it more financial help and not wait till they go bankrupt or they have to close the school because maybe they don't know that, you know, there's an opportunity to ask me.

I'm not saying we can give them additional funding, but maybe we are aware of other places that they can turn to for funding or whatever else needing. Thank you. Thank you very much.

Thank you.

A little commercial break this is the Committee Senate Committee on Education, in case somebody didn't realize it or I failed to state that. So we are moving on. Senate Bill 2125 relating to teachers teacher licensing.

And this bill amends teacher licensing statutes to remove the three year employment limit for unlicensed teachers hired on an emergency basis, requires unlicensed emergency hires to demonstrate continuous and verifiable progress toward meeting licensure requirements and strengthens reporting obligations to the board. And we have first up is the Department of Education. Superintendent Hayashi.

Good afternoon. Chair, Vice Chair, Members of the Committee, I'm Tammy Chun, Deputy Superintendent for the Department of Education. The Department of Education supports this bill. We appreciate Senator Decoit's initiative in bringing this forward and just provide just a little background in emergency hired teachers. Emergency hired teachers are hired when a licensed teacher is not available.

The emergency hire teachers serve on one year contracts for up to three years. Emergency hire teachers must have a bachelor's degree and when they're in the classroom, they receive support for induction and mentoring that new teachers receive. They receive professional development and they also get an annual evaluation.

Emergency hire teachers are an important way to meet the immediate needs for our classrooms and it's a pipeline for our state residents into teaching.

The bill extends the number of years that an emergency hire can teach and the Department of Education is committed to developing the teacher pipeline so that we can develop more of the emergency hire teachers into licensed teachers. Thank you.

Okay, next up we have Felicia Villalobos or Teacher Standard Board.

Good afternoon. Chair, Vice Chair, Members of the Committee. My name is Felicia Villalobos. I'm the Executive Director of the Hawaii Teacher Standards Board testifying on behalf of the Board. The Board submitted written testimony in opposition of this bill.

The Hawaii Teacher Standards Board respectfully opposes Senate Bill 2125 due to the concerns about its duration and the learning loss and academic gaps experienced by students taught by emergency hires who lack full preparation and credentials.

Long term reliance on emergency permits allows positions to be filled without the credentials training experience necessary to protect instructional quality and student services. Emergency hire permits are intended to address short term urgent staffing needs when no qualified candidates are immediately available. Extending these permits beyond three years fundamentally changes this purpose and it's no longer an emergency.

It effectively functions as a permanent appointment. While many emergency hires are hardworking, well intentioned, well intentioned limited preparation can result in less effective instruction or weaker classroom management and reduced ability to identify and address student learning needs. These concerns are especially significant when that most emergency hires are in the underserved communities.

Currently There are over 1,000 emergency hires in Hawaii and a large amount of these emergency hires are concentrated in elementary, K6 and SPED. Where students are at critical stages of development in the elementary grades. Foundational skills such as reading, writing and math are particularly vulnerable.

Inadequate instruction can lead to regression and learning loss rather than progress over multiple years. This learning loss can compounds and can have everlasting effects on students academic growth, especially for students with disabilities who require specialized instruction, legal compliance and consistent highly trained teachers.

Research consistently shows that licensed teachers are associated with higher student achievement and stronger long term academic and social emotional outcomes.

Can you summarize please?

I just want to say that this is going to have long term consequences because the concentrated of emergency hires are in elementary and sped and if they're untrained that compounds there's a four to six month learning loss for every time they're they're taught by an emergency hire teacher. Thank you.

I'm sure we'll have questions so please stick around. Yes Yukio I'm sorry. Yuko Cross.

Aloha Chair Kim, Vice Chair Kidani and Members of the Committee. I'm Yuko Arikawo-Cross, Director of the Executive Office on Early Learning. Thanks to the support of the Legislature, the Governor and the Lieutenant Governor and our Ready Keiki partners, the number of public Pre K classrooms has grown rapidly over the last several years.

Highly qualified EOL public Pre K teachers must have graduated from a state approved teacher education program or SATEP and hold a teaching license in early childhood education. This is a unique set of qualifications for which there had been no significant demand prior to the expansion of the public Pre K program.

As the system adjusts to these new opportunities, some candidates encounter challenges obtaining an initial early childhood education license due to the limited number of approved pathways and the timing of enrollment. Opportunities for Existence Existing Programs eoel appreciates that SB 2125 seeks to address current workforce bottlenecks while maintaining the expectation that all educators progress towards full licensure.

However, EOW prefers a solution that extends the existing time frame from three to five years rather than eliminating the time limit entirely. We support maintaining a defined time limited structure to ensure that emergency hire permits function as temporary bridges to full licensure, not as a parallel or permanent hiring pathway.

So thank you for this opportunity to share our comments on this bill.

Thank you, thank you.

Osotui from HSTA.

Hello Chair Vice Chair My name is Sarah Milianta Laffen and I'm speaking on behalf of Osatui Junior and HSTA. I have the honor this session to be your teacher lobbyist. So my job is to come speak to you as a practitioner actively in the classroom about what's important to teachers and educators and students across the state.

So for this piece, what we're looking at is we're all here trying to fight the teacher shortage and this is a bill that goes ahead and supports that by making sure we get people who are passionate about being in those classrooms completed with their programs and in the classroom.

So we believe that this supports fighting the teacher shortage. I will also say in my capacity as a leeward chapter President, 3,000 teachers from Makaha to Pearl City, that we have a lot of teachers who are seeking licensure who have issues with getting their license.

And this particularly in Hawaiian Immersion where it's been harder for people to get their license. At my school I have two incredible teachers who are fighting to get their license. The kids love them. I've watched them teach and it's just it can be tough to get to these programs.

I would also say sometimes people may Have a baby or something that goes ahead and impacts their studies as they're moving forward. And I think this just helps find a way to fight that shortage. Mahalo.

Thank you very much. Okay. I don't know if I can say this right. Jonaras Lampa. Not here. Okay. Douglas Boyer on Zoom.

Yes. I mean, I'm here. Yes. Aloha Chair, Vice chair and Members of the Committee. My name is Doug Boyer and I'm the Principal at Lanai High and Elementary School. I'm here today in strong support of Senate Bill 2125. As a school leader in a rural neighbor island community, I see firsthand the serious teacher shortages our schools face.

To remain fully staffed, we rely on emergency hires and emergency hires from the J1 visa program. Many of our educators hold advanced degrees, years of experience teaching or in the industry, and have been award winning.

I can personally attest that our emergency certificate personnel provide effective, culturally responsive instruction and critical continuity for students in our rural community, resulting in positive academic and social emotional outcomes. Lanai High elementary school has filled 19 of its 60 positions with educators holding emergency higher certificates.

Without emergency higher certified teachers, Lanai students will be facing long term vacancies and a lack of consistent instruction from a single individual and potentially larger class sizes. At Lanai High Elementary School, we take training, emergency certificate and new hires seriously.

We provide in house mentoring, professional development, instructional coaching to help educators who are not fully licensed become effective, confident teachers as they progress towards certification. These teachers are not temporary placeholders. They are essential Members of our community. This bill emphasizes sustained progress rather than limitations.

This bill allows educators to focus their energy what matters most, supporting students while holding accountability to move steadily toward full licensure. Thank you for your time.

Thank you very much. Appreciate you taking the time to be on our Zoom for today. Okay, we've had, let's see, 33 people send in testimony, three opposed, one with comments. And so we have approximately 25 others that have sent in support. Is there anyone here in this room that would like to speak or.

I did not call your name if not. Okay, so we are open to questions. I know there'll be questions. So why don't we start off with DOE and then probably the teacher standard board. So. As well. So currently right now you said in your testimony that emergency hires have to have one year.

I mean have to have a BA degree and then you're. Normally they're hired for one year, but they can extend up to three years.

Correct.

Okay, so. So how many of those actually turn end up getting their license at this.

Time I don't have that information. We are researching that in the. And we'll have an answer later in session.

Okay. How long have the board DOE has been doing emergency hires like this?

I think emergency hires have been for quite a long time. I just wanted to mention the emergency. Yes, Emergency hire might not be the best description for the situation.

When you say long time, give me an idea.

Actually, I'll have to get back to you on that. It's been for at least five years. We've researched the data on the number for at least five years.

So at least five years. And of that five years, it's been constant one year and with an extension of five.

Three years up to three.

Up to three. And then what happens after the three?

They can. The teacher has not received a license at that point, then they can no longer be employed.

Okay. They can no longer come back.

And they could no longer come back as an emergency hire.

Come back as an emergency hire.

And it's a lifetime. So it's a cumulative.

So I would think though, after five years you would have this data available as to how many are actually becoming getting their license. Right.

This requires some data that's not easy to manage in the system. So we are in the process of pulling that information. Some do receive their license and others decide not to continue.

Right. But you would know that, right? I mean, you would know if they get licensed because then you would take them off of this program. You would put them into the school. So you would know that offhand. If they decide not to continue, you would know that because they would leave. Right?

So I guess I'm just trying to say how hard is the data to get the data?

So the data is not tracked in a way that's easy. Was easy for us to pull it immediately. So we are getting that data right now. That's an important question. We just don't have the answer right now.

And. Stay on this line because again, it's like, how do we know? But the problem is how do we know that we need to do this five years instead of three years? How do we know? Maybe we should do it into perpetuity like this Bill is asking for.

Unless, you know, these are things that I think is so important that we know. And maybe three years is not the right amount. Maybe five is. Maybe four is the optimal number. Right?

I mean, so yeah, I think it's crucial and that you folks are in this position to be able to look at that numbers and then act on it without us having to have a bill. Right.

So, Senator, we know that teachers reach the end of the three years and need to and can no longer be employed. We know that. So our request is to extend beyond three years, whether it's five years or which. There's a different vehicle for five years. That would be helpful. And then this Bill does not provide a limitation.

So I think any moving beyond the three years is important. But whether it's five or 10 is the magic number. That's not. There's no data to back up that choice.

We have no data to do anything because you're not giving it to us.

Well, what we know is the number of teachers who are at their third year this year who would be.

What's the total number of emergency hires that you folks have?

So there's the. There's an emergency hire permit and there are about a thousand teachers this year who are, in that case, 400 of them have already completed a teacher education program but are in the process of getting their license.

The HST lobbyist mentioned at another hearing that, for example, she transferred in state and had been licensed elsewhere but needed to start as an emergency hire to get her paperwork done. But there are about 600 who have not completed a teacher education program at the time. They have not yet completed the teacher education program.

So 1,000 emergency hires out of how many teachers?

A little over 12,000.

So they're over 12,000. So about 10%.

About 8%? Yes.

Is any of this having to do with any obstacles in getting the license?

There are obstacles in teachers completing their teacher education program. That's where we see the most obstacles. Sometimes these are people who are newly teaching. They might have not yet decided if they want to pursue teaching long term. Sometimes the cost is at issue. They're making entry level teacher salary and trying to pay for the program.

Teacher education program for credits. Another reason is sometimes people working another job or a life situation is happening that makes it difficult to complete the program at the same time as working within the three years.

Do you folks evaluate these emergency hires?

We do.

In what way?

They receive the annual teacher evaluation that all teachers receive. The emergency hire teachers would receive them annually. As opposed to our tenured teachers who receive an effective evaluation. They don't receive them as frequently.

So somebody actually goes into the classroom and observe them for how long?

Correct. I have to check on the duration of the observation. But there is a required observation for an evaluation. There is also a mentor teacher who is working with the teacher. So they also observe them and provide coaching questions.

Ultimately. Senator, thank you so is there a way that you guys can assess what districts have the most unlicensed teachers and how can you make it easier for them to get licensed? For instance, rather than all having to drive to the university or wherever?

Can there be a school that they congregate at to get their license and get their education? Has that been looked at?

So yes. So we can provide information about where we have more of our emergency hire teachers on a county on a complex area basis. The complex area with the largest number of emergency hire teachers is Baldwin Ke Kalike kulanihaku' I Maui with 179.

We do see a lot of issues with shortages and with housing challenges for Maui county in particular. So we have that information.

The other is we are beginning discussions with some of the teacher preparation programs about if this program, if this law passed, could we restructure how the programs are timed so that it fits better with a teaching schedule, with a teacher's schedule for these particular group of teachers.

Does DOE assist these emergency hires in any way to get their license or to overcome some of the obstacles?

So the most significant obstacle or what's required to complete the teacher license within the three years is primarily to complete the state approved teacher education program. So they have to earn a, they have a bachelor's degree. So if they're on their post complete a post baccalaureate certificate or they need to do the master's program.

And so for different high need areas there might be programs to assist like grow your own programs for certain. But it's, but it's not across the board for every type of teacher.

Okay, so DOE itself does not help some of these because I've had a couple of calls on people saying that they did the degrees and so forth, but they're having trouble getting their license with the teacher standard board. That a lot of technical issues that make them go through the process again and again.

I don't know again and again. But again and so that has been. So do folks don't assist them in any way?

So I would say that the examples that I'm aware of, for example, a case I know of, a principal was advocating for their teacher to get through the process with the standards board and, and, and then eventually called me because. So I'd tell you a specific case.

I do know that the administrators will try to support their teachers in meeting licensing requirements. No, I, I worked with the school and tried to help the teacher get the evidence that they needed to be or provide guidance to them on how to get the evidence. We in that case Contacted the teacher standards board.

Yes, Senator.

So at the end of the day, the teachers or the principal has the ability to not rehire the teacher. Right. The emergency hire, after that, they don't feel like they're meeting their needs, right?

Correct. And if there is a teacher and emergency hire position this year, that position will be advertised for next year for a fully licensed teacher. Really?

It is truly a band aid.

Yes, it's a band aid. And so if the position is filled by a licensed teacher, the emergency hire teacher wouldn't be hired. And then the next year, if it's still vacant, the principal could choose to renew a contract for an emergency hire teacher.

So, of course, you told me what I already knew, which is we have. My district has the highest emergency hires. So I guess when you take a look at the data further, you know, is it, is it more the rural areas that are experiencing this, that have less access to, you know, programs essentially.

And this is what I've been harping on everybody, right? There's access issues. Right. But maybe you guys should take a look at what that is, because I think if people in the urban area don't want this, something like this, then maybe we just say, okay, this is for the rural areas. Right?

Because if people want to have this really high standard, that's fine, but we're trying to fight it out on the neighbor islands. Right?

So, Senator, I would. So Baldwin Ke, Kaulike, Kalani, Hakoi, Mauis, 179, then the next in order would be Campbell, Kapolei, Lelehua, Mililani, Waialua, Kapaa, Kauai, Waimea, and then Honoka, Kealakehe, Kala, Konawaena. And so it really is outside of the urban core Honolulu, outside of urban Honolulu is where we see the need for this. So I don't.

If you extend it, I don't. It. It doesn't change the situation for the Honolulu schools. For urban Honolulu schools, they'll just have a smaller number. So I would, I would.

But at the end of the day, this is a band aid solution. Right. I think that that's. That we need to underscore that. Right.

It is a band aid solution. It's one of. It's a tool that we have to make sure that we have a teacher in the classroom who's receiving support and able to be consistent for the students.

So what are the reasons that there are such shortages in these areas? In Mililani, I think it's a housing issue, and they are building a teacher housing complex but is that the issue? Because if it is, then maybe that's what we need to look at for other areas also.

Housing is an issue also. We just overall don't have enough licensed teachers. One thing we know is we have a supply side problem. We know that teacher education programs around the country have seen radical declines in the number of students who are signed up to be teachers or who are in programs to become teachers.

So Hawaii is experiencing the same thing. So we just have a shortage. And the rural areas have more of a shortage, like bear more of the shortage.

Educators who have been teaching teachers to get their degrees, they no longer exist or there's a short supply, or they're moving out or.

There'S less, there's less college students or there's less people seeking a teacher, a degree in teaching paper.

Why is that?

Well, some of it, some of it is pain. Some of it is other opportunities that are available. If we looked, you know, a generation ago or two generations ago, we would see that we had a lot of women and people of color in teaching because there was discrimination elsewhere. And teaching was a good career, was an opportunity.

But there's a lot more, there's a more variety of opportunities now to teach in other areas or have other kinds of careers. So that some of it is just kind of these meta issues, some of it is the prestige. And I think there's a lot of teaching is a hard job. And so I think when there are.

There's a lot of narrative that people shouldn't be teachers. I think a lot of our students get a message teaching is hard, this is. And it's not the best paying job, so go do something else. I think those are all things that challenge us.

What about the fact that, you know, they don't just teach now? I think you folks always, not only you, but you know, everybody sort of just goes over that issue that they're not just teaching anymore.

They have to be caretakers, they have to be nurses, they have to, you know, dispense with medication, they have to change diapers, they have to do all kinds of stuff now.

And I know that because I hear that from a lot of the people that went into teachings, not like before they taught 100% of the time they taught. And now that's not the only reason. And then the parents are no longer. I shouldn't say this because I know I got calls about it, but they're not as involved.

They drop the children off to school and expect the school to correct all of the problems that is going on. With the child. And when they don't do it, then they get really angry with the teachers and with the schools because.

Yeah, people believing that they should be able to drop the child off at 2 years old and then pick them up at senior year. Right. Pretty much.

So the demands on school and expectations of school are different today. And a lot our communities are different. And especially post Covid, we're seeing a lot of different needs in schools. And so to help our students to be successful in the learning goals that we have for them, schools have done a lot more.

Have we crippled our families because of that? Have we crippled them to thinking that the school is the panacea? And the more problems they are, the more that we as government and we want to, you know, help everybody, have taken on these burdens, which then doesn't solve the problem, but just keeps growing it bigger.

Because if you look at every year, bill, you know, we used to take the. Take them at 4 years old for preschool, now 3 years old, and then it's 2 years old. I've had calls come in. So it's pretty much like, you know, after you, after you have the baby, just drop the kid off and.

But, you know, but that's been the kind of attitude I think, that is prevalent now. And, you know, the responsibilities for the family has really shrunk in that sense. But have we done too much to enable that kind of culture?

Senator, I think it's a question for the community and the Legislature as a whole body about what our expectations are of the Department of Education. And I think it's a question worth asking. But I.

But the Department of Education, being that this is your. This is, you know, this is just one part of all the problems in our state.

You folks are on education to be the leaders to say, hey, wait a minute, enough is enough or stop or this is the cause, why, you know, people don't want to go into education, why students aren't pursuing it. They see what the teachers are going through. I mean, there's got to be.

Not just say, okay, we'll do the spill. Oh, okay, yeah, we'll take on more. Yeah. You know, we'll hire more psychologists. Yeah, let's, you know, and you guys embrace all of this. I mean, that's been my sense in these hearings.

Yeah. And I think maybe we can ask the board of education to send a report to us to give us a clue or give us a heads up on why people are not going into teaching. What could we do or try to do to enhance it so that we can recruit our teachers.

So thank you, Senator. We also have the Teacher Education Coordinating Committee which is created by statute and it brings together all the teacher preparation programs together with Department of Education. And I think that is something we can bring up with them.

We can share a report that they provided and then see whether or not we should further ask them to elaborate on that.

But I think that these groups, as worthy as they are, focusing on the same thing. Pay, housing. Right. Lack of the housing, some teaching conditions, but not really getting down to the nitty gritty. What is it? Why isn't our students interested in teaching? I mean, so besides. Because, you know, sometimes pay is not just the pay.

My sister said she worked as a special needs teacher in the mainland and she said it's not necessarily the pay, it's everything else. You know, dealing with the parents, dealing with some of the disruption in the classroom and feeling like you don't have the control. I mean, there's a lot of stuff.

And I think that that's what we're missing because we're too focused on the pay and the housing.

But I also think it's because parents expect teachers to be parents and you know. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

So I think it's on both sides of the issue, but I'm not sure how, how we handle it, how we deal with it, what we can do put in place to help the schools and the teachers to handle these issues with students.

Well, these students grow up to be parents who then have kids that fit in classrooms. It's a cycle that goes on. Okay, Senator, we've been waiting patiently.

Thank you. It's hard because you don't really have any numbers. Right. So. So I feel like our conversations are just kind of talk story sessions. But do you have any way to quantify if extending this two more years would be able to retain the teachers to have them go through the process?

Is this the solution or one of. One of.

So this is one solution. One thing I want to say that's important is that the question is what's the alternative? So if we, if the emergency hire teacher reaches the end of three years and there's a vacancy next year in the position they were in, what happens?

What happens is either we hire a new emergency hire teacher or we hire a substitute, a day to day substitute.

And those are not, in my opinion, those are not better choices than the teacher who's been evaluated, received training, and to give that teacher a couple more years to complete their teacher license or to complete their educator preparation program would be Helpful.

I would have to put open a different spreadsheet to give you the information, but there are maybe 150 to 200 teachers who are in the third year of their emergency hire this year. So those that would be the group that would be eligible to continue for two more years to complete their license.

We are in the process of running a survey with our emergency hire teachers and it's still in process. But I looked at the data that we received so far and hang on, I have it right here.

Data received so far and 50% of the emergency hire teachers said that they would be more likely to complete their teacher license if they had additional time.

Do you have any data of the teachers that have completed the licensing program but then had just pulled out? Because you had mentioned some of that too, right? That people were going through the licensing process, but then they decided that they didn't want to move forward.

That data I don't have. I have lots of other data. Just that particular one. We're still having to analyze that data.

Thank you, Chair. I can follow up. So when you hire an emergency, then they normally. Then they start the process in order to get their credentials, whatever necessary, and then their license or some of them already have started in the process.

There's some of them could have started in the process. Okay, but.

But say for one. So we hire you hire them today and they. What is the normal process? Then they take. They start. Does it take a while? Like they have to wait to the next class or how does that work?

Correct. So if we have an emergency hired teacher who has not yet started a teacher preparation program, they would have to apply for it and then begin coursework. So once they've already started in school in August, it's too late to apply for the program for that school year.

So they would have to apply for the program during that school year and then begin the process.

Okay, so say I want to be a teacher. So this is February and I come to you and you hire me. So in order to start teachers prep, I have to apply by then.

So it would depend on the particular program because they could apply for a variety of different programs that are approved.

By standards board, but on a average or general basis.

So for say UH Manoa, you would need to apply for fall admission. And followed I'd have to look up when fall admission for graduate programs are, but for undergraduate programs you would have had to apply by March.

Okay.

For the fall.

Fall admission does take a while. So. So I apply and I get accepted in there. So the program is Three years.

So post baccalaureate program I believe is one year, but I would have to confirm that information and then a master's program would take longer.

Okay. So it could technically take me two years from the time I get hired to get my teacher's prep.

If you were on the most.

Yeah, I finished my teacher's prep. How long between that and getting, getting.

License then you need to apply for the, your license at the standards board and I, I would need defer to the standards board on that process.

How long it takes. I'm just trying to understand the three year process right now. So if it takes almost two years to even get the teacher's prep, then maybe, maybe an extension is, is needed because then I don't know, depending on how long it takes to get a license, then maybe two years is not the optimum number.

But yes, we definitely have anecdotal stories about good people who are doing well in the classroom but for different reasons, run out of time to complete their program and do.

They wouldn't know this but whether when they end there, they still continue and then do come back once they get the license.

That will come with the data that we're analyzing anymore.

Okay, thank you. Yeah. Teacher Sander Board, please. How much is left? Senator Hashimoto. Yes.

Thanks for being here. So, you know, I, I'm reading your testimony and it's like deja vu again from last year that you're against, you know, trying to help the DOE and trying to figure out their shortage.

So I'd like to ask you what did you do over this last year to help the DOE to bring down their shortage? Because I'm reviewing some documents and I'm very alarmed at what you have done over this last year. So I think you're putting more barriers up than helping to be solutions oriented.

Perfect. Thank you for your question. So in working with the TECC Committee and you've had Dean Murata here to talk about that, the Hawaii Teacher Standards Board started the seed of educators rising the CTE TAP pathway from building from high school all the way to hopefully a registered apprenticeship program. Because there is that narrative.

Okay, well that, that hasn't really come to fruition over the last year. So I'm talking about what did you have done over this past year? Because what I'm looking at it right? You, you didn't. You guys put a moratorium on new teacher pathway programs coming into the state.

Yeah. So it has come to fruition actually on Friday they're having their educators rising competition.

Okay, so how many did you get.

Through that, 300 student teachers or teacher high school students are looking into becoming teachers.

Okay. But not have they entered the program?

I'm not sure we'll find out this year because they're going to. Hopefully the winners are going to a national competition in Oregon and then from there. So it's juniors and seniors. So this Friday is their in person competition, which is the first in our state to ask about the moratorium. The moratorium is only for outside institutions.

For our in state institutions, which we are working with.

That's right. So why aren't we trying to build up as many pathways as possible to try and get people to help those 300 that want to do something?

Yes. So we are building that out.

But why did you put a moratorium in place then?

So if I can explain. The moratorium is for the outside institutions. So if we have 14 educator preparation programs right now that are building out programs. So there's no moratorium on our in state.

So if UH, Manoa, HPU, BYU want to submit more programs, which some of them are, those are going through the review process right now to answer the question about enrollment. I know, right.

So, so, but, but why did you put a moratorium in place then? If, if, if, if when you hear talk to the TEC and understand what they're trying to do, they're talking about we're trying to use every single institution out there. But then you're putting a moratorium in place. It doesn't make sense to me.

Correct. Because again, there's an NC, Sara federal law as well out there that the board is in compliance with. So they have to go through an entire review process.

Why moratorium?

It's up in December so we can work on our in state programs currently to build out those programs.

Why haven't you been doing that over this past period of time to get into compliance? Why do you have a moratorium? Oh, excuse me.

Oh UH West Oahu has put out programs. Manoa has put out many programs.

I'm talking about the moratorium. Why did you put on moratorium?

I didn't put it out. The board put it out.

But the reason was. So I'm asking you, why did the board put that out? If we believe that we want to have more teacher training programs?

I just wanted to clarify that there are more teacher programs that are in state from the 14 that are growing.

Why did you put a moratorium in place? That's the question. Go ahead. Okay, thank you. Thank you.

The moratorium is up because we found that there's four educator preparation programs approved by our board that were not in compliance. We had one that went bankrupt that let teacher candidates just hang. That's right.

We saw that in TECC report.

Yeah. And then we had another one that was doing some unseedy things with not giving the right recommendations content area. We actually had issues with another state no longer taking our license for reciprocity. We had another one not guiding their candidates correctly and giving them wrong advice which extended their program.

And then we had another one that was in compliance with IDA federal law.

So why were they at that point though? Weren't you guys supposed to be overseeing that?

Correct. So I started five years ago and these programs were all approved prior to that. When we found these things were happening, then the board decided maybe we should relook at our programs, but didn't stop the programs from in state to. From developing more programs. I understand that.

So the moratorium was up to, to reevaluate like you said. So it doesn't continue to happen because it happened four different occasions with four different preparations.

But isn't that a failure of your oversight powers? And why did you guys let that happen?

It was not a failure, an oversight problem. We've had two different Executive directors prior to me. And so when we were finding this out, we were getting phone calls and we actually found it out when they were doing their accreditation process as well. Accreditation happens every seven years.

And as a state entity, we sit on these accreditation and we're finding that things weren't lining up. And then we were starting getting complaints and so that's when we had to investigate and we did immediately investigate.

Okay. So when you read the TECC program, the report that we just had info briefing on the vacancies was because of the DOE's aggressive hiring practices. Right.

But it seems to me that the Standards Board is not part of that, you know, process of trying to figure out how do we retain all these people that we're bringing on board.

That's my problem with what HTSB position is, is what are you actually, what are you trying to do to help them keep all these people that they bring on board? What Essentially what it seems like is once you get to year three, you don't care.

You know, you're at the point where the standard needs to be really high, which is great. That's great that you want the standard to be high. But I think at a certain point we have to be practical because we'd rather have to. Me, when I'm in the district where I have the most emergency hires.

I would rather have someone in the classroom that's, you know that the principal's overseeing. Right. They should be monitoring to making sure that these teachers are doing well for our students. And if we have an administrative burden because you guys can't figure out how to create additional pathways, that's where I have a problem.

And over the last year, I have not seen anything. You guys have not come and seen us to talk about what your solutions were. Because I did ask you last year, but nothing. It's been silence and then we're here again. Right.

And then you're now again still opposed to this kind of build for us to retain all these people that were onboarding. That's my problem with the Standards Board.

So the teacher shortage has been going on for three decades, 30 years. The emergency hire permit, it was asked earlier how long has been in place. It's actually been in place prior to the Standards Board being a Standards Board. It was the Department of Education that was doing emergency hire permits.

So this is a long standing problem we are having.

We know it's a long standing. We are trying to figure, we're trying to be solutions oriented. We are. Right. But I don't. In your testimony, I did not see what that solution should be. To try and figure out how we're going to make this work.

How do we get all of these teachers, the thousand that we're trying to bring on, how do we figure out, how do we utilize them in the best way and get them certified? That's what I did not see. And that's what we asked last year, but it's been silenced from you.

I can provide a report. I can meet with you. Yeah, I didn't know that you wanted a report, but I can do a briefing.

Wasn't that the whole question last year that I brought up?

The last year was the J1 visa situation. That's right.

It was a band aid situation which we still have not fixed.

Yeah, because. Right.

So we're going to bring all of them in, they're going to teach, and then after you're through, they're going to be gone. But yet we put in every single obstacle in front of them.

Testing is not an obstacle for professionals.

Did you read the testimony here? People are paying over a thousand dollars to get their practice and they have to fly to Oahu many times. So we're not trying to figure out an alternate pathway for them. All I'm asking for is solutions.

Oh, yeah. So right now ETS praxis is Three and free. So they can take it three times and it's free after that. We've understand that the Department education is paying or reimbursing for practice exams. They're also helping with tutorials or tutoring for practice exams. So we're happy again to still continue to partner with DOE.

The educator preparation programs. We do have EPPs that have ongoing enrollment. So if I wanted to be a teacher today, I could actually enroll tomorrow. It's called open enrollment. It's a postbac program that leads to about 18 months unless they want to go through another program that can take two years with a master's degree.

So there are programs out there where I can enroll if I wanted to be a teacher. But like DS Chun said, there are things that come up. We do have a suspension of the rules.

If someone has we've had medical concerns come up or they had to take care of their elderly parents that they had to stop their program, they can ask for a suspension of the rules and get issued another emergency hire permit. So 4. And we only count the time in which they are actually using the permit.

So they have to take a break from school employment to do something else. We don't calculate that time. So that is actually longer than three years.

And I get it. But what I'm asking for is if you don't like this bill, what else are you doing to create a solution so that we can take advantage of this personnel? And I have not heard that from you. All I'm hearing is excuses of what the program is currently, which we understand what the currently is.

Right.

Yeah. The Hawaii Teacher Standards Board is not working on band aids. We're looking at long term, but we are.

We're in a crisis situation. And when you talk about long term, we can't get to the long term if we can't figure out the short term.

Yeah. We've been in a crisis for 30 years. So I think working with the Department.

You can say that. But when we're trying to figure out how to get things done today. Right. You have not come to the table with really good solutions.

I can. I can provide a list of solutions. Great.

I would love to see them because I have not seen them for a year.

Yeah, I'm happy to provide that. Thank you. Yeah, thank you.

Can you. So how long does it take to get licensed once somebody has completed?

So if they complete an in state program that's approved by our board, we get the recommendation from the educator preparation program. They have up to six weeks to provide that to our agency because they need to verify grades and all those other things they do at the institution level. Some institutions can have a quick turnaround.

As soon as they apply, that recommendation comes in, they're licensed. So it could take two days, one day a week. It depends on the application when they actually hit submit, it's a quick turnaround. We give priority to our in state graduates.

So once that list comes up from an educator preparation program that they have a list of recommended candidates, our licensing specialists start licensing them immediately.

So how long?

I want to say everything in maybe two days because it depends on how big the numbers are. Like UH Manoa has two to 300. That takes a couple of days to get them all licensed. Um, if it's smaller batches, then within the day.

So if I graduate today and I put in my application today, I could get it in.

We have to wait for the recommendation of the EPP. So the Educator Preparation Program, they're on their side, they have to verify their grades and there's no outstanding balances and, and then they submit the recommendations.

So once we get that recommendation in, we've had people have pending applications in waiting for their recommendation to come in from the EPP. And as soon as that happens, our licensing specialist process.

Okay, A couple of things. Okay. Yeah. So I received this one email and he said I followed the guidance that was valid at the time, completed my student teaching info. I've seen pass the practice exam.

However, HTB, HTSB is now asserting that because my requirement were incomplete out of order, my student teaching incompleted four years ago is invalid and must be repeated. This requirement is being imposed even though I have taught science for the past four years.

The Title 1 public school, first as an emergency hire and now as a long term substitute.

So you know, these are just an example of some of the complaints that there's a lot of technical issues that is going on with the teacher standard board and just putting obstacles in people who are capable of teaching and is not able to get their license.

So that praxis exams comes from the Educator Preparation Program side. When they go before the board for approval, they can say they're going to get all their credits, their content and coursework or they're going to do coursework and we're requiring them to take a test. The requirements come from the educator preparation Program.

So the Educator Preparation program is the one that guides them all the way till they get recommendations. So they're making sure they're meeting all requirements. In this instance, unfortunately, the app did not guide them correctly. And so they. And not to go into depth with that because that was an Executive session.

The board did look at it and gave a solution. So again, it's about guidance of our educator preparation programs which leads to that moratorium. Again, are all our EPPs understanding the process. Okay, process is one thing.

Okay. And I understand we need to have a process, but sometimes you gotta go beyond the process and said, okay, fine, you got the wrong guidance. But you know what? You've been teaching, you're a good teacher, whatever you have with credentials, then you know, again, it seems like it's too stringent. It's too how.

How some of these, these processes are being applied and then being, you know, and I'm not saying that's the only problem, but that might be one of the small problems that you folks can maybe. Yeah.

And the board addressed that quickly and gave a solution so that that individual has a solution for their, for their concerns or issues.

But I don't know what that solution might be. It could mean another six months, could be. I don't know what impositions were. Put police on this individual and I will find out.

Yeah, but again, you know, these are areas that, I mean, anything short of letting them go in and start teaching, to me is a tragedy for that. So on the moratorium, there are situations where outside institutions have programs and good programs that it is a lot more cost effective and affordable.

And by your moratorium, you've kept those institutions out.

It'll be up in December while we're fixing our insight.

We've lost a whole year of having these people who have gone through their programs not being recognized because you folks have had this moratorium and not accepted.

These individuals can also go because of that, Sarah. Federal law. They can also also go to that state and be issued a license as well and use reciprocity.

Yeah, I know, online. Correct. And they went there because one, the university might not offer it and two, they were too expensive, you know, double the price here, unfortunately. So we were able to get. Get on another university. And yet they applied and couldn't get in because you folks had a moratorium.

And to me, you know, I don't know why you couldn't do it on a case by case basis because it doesn't stop you from. For making exceptions. So again, we're talking 50 students at a time.

No one has applied since the moratorium. So again, we've encouraged them to apply.

They didn't apply because they were told there was a moratorium and that they weren't recognized. This institution was not recognized.

We told each EPP that is from the continent if they wanted to start the process because once they apply, it's not automatic overnight. It takes a couple of years to get approved because they have to go be vetted, make sure they're nationally accredited. So we, we've actually encouraged EPPS to start getting on top of that process now.

So when it opens up, then they have their application ready to go.

People from HCA has talked to you? Yes, of course. To resolve this issue. Correct. Without being resolved.

Correct. Well, we gave them options. And again.

But the options that you gave them were, were not. Were not satisfactory or did not meet what was needed. And again, these were. These were licensed or people that need to get the license in order to fill some of these gaps or, or in the counselor areas and so forth that we're really lacking.

Yeah. And we try to push them towards our in state counseling programs because they're not full.

Yeah, but they're expensive. It cost double the price. Do you know that?

Oh, yeah. Because Chaminade is a private one and, uh, Manoa started theirs. I'm not sure what deal that Haido has with UH Manoa, because I know there are some scholars. There's a grant similar with Chaminade as well.

Again, you're getting. The whole point of the matter is there are options out there that is very limited. 100%. I agree with you to our students, and you folks are an obstacle at this point in. In that. And those are the concerns that we have. And I hope that you hear the concerns. Definitely.

These definitely are going to be continually push and you're going to continue to come in oppose them, and that's not going to help us solve the problem.

I agree. I agree.

Okay, thank you. Okay. We're getting there. Okay. Senate Bill 2091. Relating to school buses establishes multiple Department of Education programs to address the statewide shortage of school bus drivers, including a recruitment grant program, recruitment special Fund, a repayment signing bonus program, and a school bus driver outreach and pathway program. Requires detailed quarterly report to the Legislature.

Appropriate funds to support these initiatives. Maybe we should also have a recruitment grant program for teachers as well as bus drivers being. Having said that, let's see. Attorney General's office.

I know you're not Ann. So can you identify. Okay.

Good afternoon. Good afternoon, Chair Kim, Vice Chair Kidani Members, Ann Horiuchi from the Department of the Attorney General. As we noted in our testimony, with regard to the grant program, in our testimony, we suggested some standards that could be inserted into the bill that would address the potential constitutional issue.

Also, with regard to the grant program and the signing bonuses, we've suggested some language that would address the potential need for repayment of both of those items. And we've also addressed some typographical errors in the bill. Thank you. I'll be available for questions. Thank you very much.

Daintry. Hi, Daintry.

Chair, Vice chair, Committee Members. Daintry Bartoldus is Executive Director for the Hawaii State Council on Developmental Disabilities. And we are in strong support of this measure. And we'd like to stand on our written testimony emphasizing that individuals with disabilities, they really rely on the SPED bus to get to and from school.

And when there's a shortage, that bus takes the least amount of children so kiddos to school. So typically that's the bus driver that will not be there.

And they'll take that bus driver to drive the larger buses to bring more school kids to school, which makes sense, but it does hamper our individuals from getting SPED students from getting the education they desire and need. And there's no other alternatives. So we really are a strong advocate for this bill to be passed.

Thank you so much.

Quick question. I know we're not asking till the end, but does a handicap handicam buses take students to school at all, not. Children because of the age? Okay. You're welcome. Okay. Kitayashi.

Hello. Chair Kim, Vice Chair Kidani, Members of the Committee. Sean Tajima, Assistant Superintendent reporting for the Department of Education. The Department stands on his written testimony which provides comments on this measure. And we stand by for questions.

Okay. When you say comments, can you specifically tell us what it might be as far as in support or concerns? Because you got to remember, people watching, they have no idea what you're standing on.

So in our testimony, the Department of Education appreciates the opportunity to provide these comments proposing a range of state administered initiatives to address the statewide state school bus driver shortage.

Let me just get to what the initial concerns are.

Okay. The issues that we have are while we support financial incentives for bus drivers, it's being that our bus drivers are private contractors. It's giving financial incentives to private contractors that's the crux of our issue.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Michelle Gimba in support of Tom Yamachika from the Tax Foundation.

Thank you. Chair. Vice Chair. Tom. Tom Yamachika from Tax Foundation F Hawaii. Our primary concern is with the special fund. We, we don't think that it's necessary. And this is kind of going to be a, you know, whether the DOE contracts with a private contractor or employees these individuals directly.

It seems to be a core function of DOE and doesn't justify special Fund. That's our concern.

Okay, thank you very much, Tom. Silly. Okay. There is a number of others that have signed, not signed up, but have sent in testimony. Anyone here wishing to testify on this measure? If not questions, Members? Yes Senator DeCorte.

So sorry, what was your title again?

Assistant Superintendent for Office of Campus Operations and Support. New office.

Oh, boy. Okay. Oh, you guys like doing that?

Remember that too.

Creating new offices. So a part of your testimony shared a few things, but what I kind of really want to highlight is the statement that you had kind of just made about, you know, not really wanting to release funds to contracts. Yet DOE has millions upon millions of dollars being spent to contracts.

So do you believe that that's a contradictory statement saying you don't want to give money to contracts to help kids to go to school, but you're fine with giving contracts for engineers, architects, so on and so forth.

So do you not think that getting our kids to school is a priority enough to have it be contracted to a private firm?